Why S2 and S3 of Picard were soooooo bad

I actually read that interview only to find myself laughing at how much Matalas carefully avoided to simply say "season 2 was the worst thing ever" but clearly wanted to do so. Wait a few more years (when his Legacy idea is hopefully finally buried forever) and we'll get to hear the REAL behind the scenes mess.

Honestly tho, I take season 2 over season 3 any day. It was a mess, yes, but at least it was consistent with season 1's mess of "this show is trying its own thing". Season 3 was just badfic written by a hopeless TNG fanboy.

Yes. All of the above!

In S3, I think I was fairly patient up until ep 8, and then it became completely clear it was just pointless.  

Problem is, that never would have flown. I don't think the suits would have gone for it, and I don't think Sir Pat would have either. I don't think he would have gone for a deep dive into Picard's childhood like that. It would be all talk and no boom.


As for Legacy, I think that's over. Matalas has moved on, though he says, "Call me."

Thing is, I don't like the idea even if Matalas weren't running it.

I actually sort of like S1. Yeah, it's a fundamentally different take on the character of Picard; very different from how he was written and presented in TNG. Including even the movies, where he was an action hero of sorts for the latter three. S1 and S2 of Picard feel like Sir Pat's own headcanon, which is all well and good and it almost works for S1. Not where I'd have gone with the character, or, I imagine, one of the original TNG writers might've gone, but anyway... it sort of works if you squint. I have difficulty believing that the inner emotional life of the character, as glimpsed in TNG, would've led to the version of him we see in Picard but hell, I have trouble believing it's even the same Starfleet.

That said, there's an overall sincerity to the season that I enjoy, and I like most of the new characters, all of whom are given some depth (and all of whom are performed wonderfully).  

S2 feels so thrown together, it's just bad TV. There's a lot of padding and banal explorations of interiority. And S3 is just such a nostalgia-fest there's barely anything original in there at all, with characters essentially unrecognisable from TNG in all sorts of "Plot says so" scenarios. I kinda liked the scenes with Worf, but honestly, that's about it. It's funny, back in the day when they killed the 1701-D in Generations, I always felt gypped that we never got to see more of her on the big screen and was a little sad about that. In theory, I should've felt great about her miraculous resurrection by Geordie in Picard S3, but it just felt so incredibly, crowd-pleasingly lazy my reaction was to feel totally numb to it. And that's where I ended up with that show - utterly unmoved, just incredulous that anyone thought any of it was good writing. 

I guess I could pretend S2 and S3 were never made, and just have Picard's story end there at the end of S1. At least his condition gets cured and there's that genuinely heartfelt send-off for Data. [Don't worry, kids! It gets retconned again and we get him back for S3!] 

Or I could just ignore the whole show entirely... For all its myriad flaws, Nemesis was a better ending, at least for Picard. 

All of this. Honestly, I can at least say I "get" S1. I can see what they were trying to do, the story they were trying to tell, and the message they wanted to send. If I get it, I generally find myself a little more lenient with flaws. I might look at it through a prism of what I might have done differently to get there, but if I get it and I think the message is a worthwhile one I tend to look more at the positives than trying to pick it apart.

And S1 gave Data the heartfelt sendoff he'd deserved since Nemesis because THAT part of Nemesis never sat right with me. It's so...discordant. It felt all at once that they were dismissing his death with kind of trite small talk, while still trying to ape the resonance of TWOK--as the entire film tried to do, pretty much point for point.

Also, while, S2 feels like, I dunno how to put it beyond a...collage of ideas; some good, some bad, but none of them are fleshed out or fully integrated into the overall story. There are things watchable and enjoyable in it, in much the way I've looked at almost all of DSC.

Picard S3? It is, from first frame to last, shameless pandering. It doesn't even have the virtue of being clever pandering. With TMP I still get chills when that shuttle makes that starboard turn and the Goldsmith score peaks. You knew that was coming because you can't have TOS without the E, but, with the score, and the fairly sedate tone to the film up to that point you're swept by the anticipation.

Then, when you see the epitome of class and elegance that is that ship...it still hits me.

In IV, you've spent two hours watching these people in a fish out of water story prove they still have it. And they're still a crew even if they're working separately before they set you up. "A ship is a ship." and "I hope it's Excelsior." They don't NEED the Enterprise, and it feels like the beginning of a new chapter for all of them and you have just maybe settled into the idea that that means a new ship, and maybe just re-christened Excelsior, and you're kinda looking forward to that.

Then the shuttle goes to Excelsior before it doesn't. Up...and over...then the music peaks again, and then you could weep. Those are loving moments to the ship. They respect her as a character AND understand storytelling enough that you need to build to the moment, and, sometimes a little misdirection is nice, too. These are examples of manipulating the audience while still respecting the audience.

You feel nothing in Picard because it was never sort of a secret as in TMP or IV. You feel nothing because the show was so awash in nostalgia from EPs 1 to 9 that it was never in the slightest doubt that resurrecting the D was what they were going to do. Add to that that all the nostalgia to that point had been so ham-fisted and juvenile, like Lower Decks, writ large, you're reduced to sighing, rolling your eyes, and muttering, "Just get on with it." under your breath.

But that could just have been me.

FC is the best of them mechanically, and the most successful, but I only find it slightly better than mediocre. It's fine. And no disrespect to Kriege's performance because it's absolutely fine, too, but the character was a mistake.

And when S3 of Pic was running I remember Matalas gushing on Twitter over recreating the poker scene.

I'm like, yeah, because you can't come up with your own scene to convey a similar tone. You have to straight rip something you have no hope of topping.

You have an excellent bead on this, for some strange Picard-related reason that I cannot fathom.

Someone should have sat him down and, "Okay, it's your belief that JLP never wanted kids, and that didn't change. In the beginning that's very true. There are no shortage of episodes that push this idea. But, his relationship with Wesley grew. Then there's "The Inner Light." There's "Generations." Some part of him wanted children, had them, and was happy. How do we reconcile that journey to where he is now?"

And that journey can be reconciled, I think. I think that it can be reconciled in a reasonably straightforward manner. Perhaps Post-Nemesis Picard actually tried to do it. He tried to have a family and live that life. But his daddy-issues followed him. Maybe he started seeing his father in how he was raising his child and sabotaged it, using the Romulan evacuation and the other diplomatic work to cover his failures and choices in something more noble.

It can be as simple as, "Having a thing is not so pleasing, after all, as wanting..." and he was sort of actually deluded by those out-of-body experiences to some degree when it came to his desires and capabilities. I can see anyone in an "Inner Light" scenario holding on to a sliver of, "I don't care, I was on the bridge. I know who I am. I know what I was, and none of this is real." and so you approach it all differently. You take the "family" for what it is, meet them as they are, and let yourself go. You take your personal baggage out of it because this is all just a glorified holo-novel anyway. Why WOULDN'T the CHARACTER of "Picard Dad" be a better than the actual man in that case?

"Generations?" Even more so. I mean, he could stay there for, what for all of us out here would be 100,000 years, and how will the experience not be perfect when the whole place is like "being inside joy?"

It's a lot harder when it's real, so maybe he let it all fall apart until the kid's Mom calls it a day and moves on with the kid.

Having THEM come back into the picture makes a lot more sense to me than pulling the Bev/JLP thing out of the badfic hat. But those would be new characters and they would have to have some depth, as would delving into their past together, and devoting time to that would take time away from critical plot elements like nostalgia and Vadic.

You can even still justify a one-night stand. With Vash. With Ro. With someone entirely new. But not with Bev and all the beating the square peg into a round hole that they did to get them there.


***

"It's a GREAT ending. You'll love it. I know all that's true because Ron Moore and Brannon Braga wrote it 30 years ago.

I just cannot accept anything in Picard
I want the whole g-damned thing retconned.
1. There is no way in Hell the Enterprise D would be a working vessel again
2. Lights, emit light. There are more lights on the Stargazer/Titan set than any other set before it, and there is no light. How the fk to you break physics like that? You know what, actually, THIS is issue one for me.
3. Picard and Beverly - Just what the fking hell, I thought they matured out of that romance stuff.
4. I'm pretty sure that, in the future, women can't 'accidently' get pregnant. (Yes I know, there's Sisko and Cassidy, but he forgot his injection because he was fighting a War) But there also Crusher's age to consider.
5. I wanted Data to come back so badly, but I still don't understand hw the fk they did it.
6. Killing off recurring characters or notable character (Spoilers-you know what, fk it, I'll save you lost time) Hugh, Icheb, Maddox, Shelby, but the one that pisses me off most, Ro.
7. Starfleet letting Romulans die because..androids...
8. Romulans fearing AI out of left field. WTF?
9. Picard leaving the Enterprise during his career. GOD-DMED PERIOD.
10. More Troi Suffering. Like lets make every gd-dmned thing tragic.
11. The Color Grading...oh my god, its desert colors all the damned time. I Fking hate color grading. PERIOD.
12. Did I mention lights? I did? Well it such a neuscence that it counts again because I say it does. LIGHTS EMIT LIGHT PEOPLE!!!!
13. Dystopian Federation - THIS!!! THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS!!!! HOW THE FK IS THIS EVEN STAR TREK ANYMORE?
14. THAT UGLY, SLICEES OF PIE MISSING, MONSTROSITY ,ARMED LIKE THE GRISSOM, VORLON HELMET STARDRIVED PIECE OF CRAP, IS NOT- I REPEAT NOT- AN ENTERPRISE.
15. The lack of the Enterprise E- Hell, I think it should Still be in service. It would only be 28 years old by this point
16. The E being only 28 years old is one thing, BUT RETIRING HER F'ing (pun intended) successor already? Seriously. What could be so catastrophic that you junk a brand new vessel that's completely intact?
17. VFX- Because all of Nu-trek's VFX looks like crap (Even SNW, and I love that series)
18. Everybody hate Everybody. GD-DMN!!!
19. Lights....there's these things called photons that make up light. They tend to illuminate things...SOMEONE TELL THE CINEMATOGRAPHER BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY HE OR SOMEBODY DOES NOT KNOW THAT!!! You should've watched Bill Nye The Science Guy, he explains how light works. IF you have a lightbulb, there should be light. God!!!
20. Is it me or does it seem everyone is out of character?
21. GET RID OF THE FKING WINDOWS. Viewscreens people. VIEW...SCREENS...
22. Shiny Floors....why the hell is everything so shiny but painted black. Are you purposely creating a cinematographers nightmare? Absolute stupidity inflating the cost of production.
23. When recycling sets, there is absolutely no talent at disguising the sets or transforming them. Herman Zimmerman could stretch a penny, and make convincing conversion of sets. NuTrek doesn't even try.
24. The Warp Effect. I don't care whats realistic or not, but Star Trek is not fking Star Wars
25. For the 4th Time LIGHTS SHOULD EMIT LIGHT!!! I CANT SEE A GD-DMNED THING!! I TURNED THE BRIGHTNESS AND CONTRAST UP TO MAXIMUM ON MY FKING TV. I STILL CAN'T SEE CRAP ON THIS SHOW,

1. I can see it, but it would take way more reason than what was presented onscreen to justify it being the D. I think Geordi could take just about any ship in the fleet and sever the networking tech enough to run it. If for no other reason than he worked on generations of ships that didn't have it.

2. The light isn't QUITE as an immersion-breaking thing for me, but I get it. I don't understand how they function in such a dark environment all the time. Battlestations? Sure. It at least arguably would help you keep your focus on your station. Daily life? I don't get it.

3. There was never anything there between them to begin with. Picard has more genuine chemistry with Q than he ever did with Crusher.

4. Women can get pregnant now at the age she did then. The problem is that human biology isn't going to evolve to something else in 400 years. Beverly COULD get pregnant, but it'd require a conscious choice and medical intervention.

She didn't "accidentally" get pregnant.

5. Data was gone in S1 and it should have stayed that way.

6. Shelby was the worst of it for me. She has a HISTORY with networked intelligence and hacking and Borg. That the woman I saw in BOBW would be just fine with networking the entire forking fleet is insane.

And then she just insta-dies one minute after she delivers her Starfleet cheerleader speech.

20. Nah. Pretty much everyone.

What I find far more weird about the Crusher pregnancy (other than the correct assessment that there's no way she could just have gotten pregnant without some serious medical intervention) is the fact that BOTH parties need to forget the injection.

So. Jean-Luc Picard. The guy they portray as being terrified of having kids (which is inaccurate, yes, but the show beats us over the head with it, so I'm running with it here). Forgetting whether he's still protected by the injection before going on a nice little love affair vacation with Crusher where he knew they would most likely end up in bed again. Yeah. That makes sense. Not.

Any halfway decent fic writer would notice this and be like "wait, this doesn't make any sense, it contradicts itself, I need to re-write this".

...[is out of character].

I've greatly enjoyed reading the recent posts in this thread. Glad it's not just me. 

I guess if you come at Picard as a show that takes place in a different universe to that of TNG, it might be a way of getting your head around it - although that's not actually going to improve your perception of shoddy writing. Also, that's not what I signed up for. 

Basically this.

S3 feels like a continuation of some other world's TNG. They all have the same names, but in this one, Picard and Riker had a somewhat contentious history, Picard and Crusher had some long affair at some point, which led them led them to reconnect, and, bam...kid. That Geordi doesn't really have a zest for life and an optimistic spirit.

All these versions just belong to some other show.

And that's on top of The Shrike, and Vadic, and Changelings, and Section 31 that appear here with no meaning. All that is so cobbled together for the sake of putting something on TV, helmed by someone who seems to have never understood it.

There would have been so many ways to get that gang back together to do a TNG story, and one that had nothing to do with the Borg. I'm so tired of them and bored of them, and while they had an iconic moment, too many people misinterpreted that as, somehow, being what TNG was about to the point that the entire Trek franchise has never let them go, to itss detriment. Because. At this point, the Borg are lazy contrivances you pull out as though that does 90% of the work for you when it comes to writing. TENSION!!! Simple to explain to the audience if they need it! And so very much BOOM! BAM! KAPOW!"

If you're gonna do one last ride with TNG, BOBW was never your template. It was one iconic moment. TNG is "Where No One Has Gone Before." It's, "The Chase." It's taking the journey together to something greater. It's "The Pegasus" and what "Insurrection" at least tried to be. It's about these friends bonded in service fighting for ideals, and, in so doing, showing why those values are worth standing up for.

But, for the love of God, it's not the Borg for the 47th time.

26. Apparently. I mean, after EP 8, they didn't need the filler anymore and just dropped all of it....woah...almost like it never mattered.

27. Even if the Borg just hatched a few dozen of "race x" -- assimilated people that look like they always did, and are even unaware themselves that they were assimilated until activated and then they can basically become Neo from The Matrix, the Borg would have been far more successful.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you could spread assimilation like an STD.

28. This, too. Even just give me a few scenes that revolve around, "Hey, Picard, we didn't do this. What help do you need? Okay, while you do this, we're doing this, and we'll meet in the middle."

But S31 is only as strong as the story requires.

Also, Stweart seemed to fit better with the "Bloodlines" kid.

I've seen Speelers in other things and he's fine, but I think he just sorta sticks out here and makes the problems worse.