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Post by SherlockHolmes on Apr 16, 2024 17:36:02 GMT
Indeed. A lot of those who were extremely vocal about hating the first two seasons were pandered to with the third season (just look at how Matalas sucked up to people like Robert Meyer Burnett, who had hated on every single thing the first two seasons did) - and they got what they always wanted: TNG 2.0 Nostalgia Bait and Matalas made it as easy as he possibly could for them to ignore the first two seasons because he undid pretty much everything major that they established. No wonder they were all over it. I hate the first 2 seasons with a passion. Putting that out there. Season 3, yeah I wanted the crew back, but this pandering to the fans was nauseating. GIVE ME BACK THE ENTERPRISE-E If you must have the D, RETROFIT IT TO MATCH THE AGT ENT-D Drop the flipping melodrama between main cast members. God thats putting them all out of character Prograssion! Progression, progression, progression... STOP FKING KILLING OFF FAN FAVORITES, ESPECALLY IN STUPID WAYS I.E. Shelby and Ro. Turn on the g-dmned LIGHTS!!!! Also, TURN ON THE DAMNED LIGHTS and one other thing .. TURN ON THE FKING LIGHTS Also Drop the Troi suffering BS. Also, TURN ON THE GDMNED LIGHTS.... so in conclusion....WE NEED LIGHT |
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Post by MrPicard on Apr 18, 2024 9:24:42 GMT
I remember Matalas saying he didn't "intend" for things to look like as if someone hadn't paid the electricity bill. But then this is a general problem with a lot of current television shows, I can't put this one on PIC alone. There are entire episodes of The Walking Dead where I can't see a thing and have to rely on subtitles to explain what's going on. This development sucks, and it does suck even more that Matalas thought he had to follow that style, too.
And yeah, what IS it with PIC killing off all the fan favorites. You'd think they learned their lesson after the Hugh outrage from season 1, but I guess the opposite was the case.
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Apr 29, 2024 20:29:41 GMT
So.........I plan on attending the Trek con in Vegas, and this appeared in my inbox:
Best known for helming the third and final season of Star Trek: Picard, Terry will be on hand to answer questions on stage, take photo ops and sell his autographs directly to fans in the vendors room.
PLUS, Terry will offer an exclusive Writers Workshop for those looking for an unprecedented tutorial on writing for genre television. In this 90-minute workshop, he'll discuss how to break and make a Star Trek show in production. Participants will be able to work interactively with Terry to create a story and examine all the challenges that come with developing a show (i.e. the actors might not like certain aspects or the budget may be too tight). There is limited space, so scoop up tickets at each destination!
***
With Ron Moore, and Ira Behr at the convention, you think I'd want to go to a Matalas-run writer's workshop?
Hahahahahahahahahaha...............
No.
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Post by MrPicard on Apr 30, 2024 12:12:18 GMT
Might actually be interesting though - wouldn't it be hilarious if he runs into someone who actually knows how to write a story and not a teenager's badfic and takes his nonsense apart? lol
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Apr 30, 2024 16:13:12 GMT
Might actually be interesting though - wouldn't it be hilarious if he runs into someone who actually knows how to write a story and not a teenager's badfic and takes his nonsense apart? lol Heh.... If I knew, say, that Ira Behr was gonna be in there and raise his hand, I'm not sure you could keep me away.  |
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Post by BeastBoy on Apr 30, 2024 17:53:54 GMT
Hi! Take a look at this!
What do you think about that?
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Apr 30, 2024 18:22:28 GMT
LOL.
Really? This guy thinks old Star Trek was "subtle?" That it wasn't, as he puts it, "preachy, shoot-from-the-hip crap that didn't hit people over the head with the message?"
Oh, man.
Old Trek wasn't preachy?
How about "Let That Be your Last Battlefield?" Preachy.
"The Outcast?" Preachy.
"The Neutral Zone?" (i.e. the 20th Century humans are barbarians) Preachy and condescending.
I really could go on.
Maybe he should watch that first episode with Barclay again. "The crew found a way to relate to him, nurture him, and to bring him out of his shell."
* After his previous Captain and crew were so uncomfortable with him, they kicked him off the ship. (i.e. shipping the problem off)
* The senior staff of the Enterprise OPENLY MOCKS HIM with 'Commander Broccoli" and Riker does NOTHING to immediately put a stop to the disrespect. It's Picard that has to order the XO to end that.
* Picard calls the man, 'Mr. Broccoli' to his face. Admittedly, this is an accident, but nor is there any indication that he ever personally apologized for it.
* LaForge only reaches out to Barclay after having been ordered to do so.
(i.e. these are snippy, arrogant, people)
Please though, I don't want to get in the way of this dude's cherry picking.
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Post by MrPicard on May 2, 2024 12:21:11 GMT
I'm as tired of the mindless glorification of Old Trek as I am of the "all new Trek is inherently bad" narrative. TNG has a massive amount of flaws and horrible episodes. Sure, PIC is terrible as well, but TNG is by no means amazing at all times. If TNG was made today, people would be picking it apart just as much as they're picking apart PIC. And often rightfully so.
The issue I have with PIC is that it likes to draw inspiration from TNG in a really annoying way - it ignores what isn't convenient for the contrived plots. It puts the plot first instead of wondering if it actually fits to the character of Jean-Luc Picard. This doesn't automatically mean that TNG was perfect tho. It simply means that, for better or worse, TNG established a universe and a history of Jean-Luc Picard that PIC often flat out ignores. Whether that history was established within good episodes on a good show is a subject for an entirely different debate.
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Post by Prometheus59650 on May 2, 2024 16:38:26 GMT
I'm as tired of the mindless glorification of Old Trek as I am of the "all new Trek is inherently bad" narrative. TNG has a massive amount of flaws and horrible episodes. Sure, PIC is terrible as well, but TNG is by no means amazing at all times. If TNG was made today, people would be picking it apart just as much as they're picking apart PIC. And often rightfully so. The issue I have with PIC is that it likes to draw inspiration from TNG in a really annoying way - it ignores what isn't convenient for the contrived plots. It puts the plot first instead of wondering if it actually fits to the character of Jean-Luc Picard. This doesn't automatically mean that TNG was perfect tho. It simply means that, for better or worse, TNG established a universe and a history of Jean-Luc Picard that PIC often flat out ignores. Whether that history was established within good episodes on a good show is a subject for an entirely different debate. I agree. Much of PIC S3 makes stand-ups of these people do things. (What do i want Riker to do? as opposed to, What would Riker do?) and it makes me cringe because I know these people, or at least thought I did. |
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Post by MrPicard on May 3, 2024 6:00:40 GMT
I'm as tired of the mindless glorification of Old Trek as I am of the "all new Trek is inherently bad" narrative. TNG has a massive amount of flaws and horrible episodes. Sure, PIC is terrible as well, but TNG is by no means amazing at all times. If TNG was made today, people would be picking it apart just as much as they're picking apart PIC. And often rightfully so. The issue I have with PIC is that it likes to draw inspiration from TNG in a really annoying way - it ignores what isn't convenient for the contrived plots. It puts the plot first instead of wondering if it actually fits to the character of Jean-Luc Picard. This doesn't automatically mean that TNG was perfect tho. It simply means that, for better or worse, TNG established a universe and a history of Jean-Luc Picard that PIC often flat out ignores. Whether that history was established within good episodes on a good show is a subject for an entirely different debate. I agree. Much of PIC S3 makes stand-ups of these people do things. (What do i want Riker to do? as opposed to, What would Riker do?) and it makes me cringe because I know these people, or at least thought I did. Yeah I get what you mean. The whole "well they're older now" narrative doesn't work at all, no matter if we're talking JLP on PIC's first two seasons or all of the TNG crew in season 3. The worst idea was to ask the cast where they think their characters are now and to then follow their advice instead of re-watching TNG (and in Worf's case also DS9) and coming up with something that actually makes sense for the character. Gates McFadden still defends Crusher's nonsense explanation of why Crusher never told Jean-Luc she was pregnant with his child, just as much as she still thinks "The Host" sent a great message to the LGBT community... this alone should have told them to maybe not ask the cast for too much input.
What IS it with asking the cast. They last played these characters a zillion years ago. They don't remember most of what happened on TNG. They just took wild guesses as to what their characters are up to now based on the few moments they remember from TNG. It boggles the mind. Actors are actors, not writers. I mean yeah, sure, they can have SOME say, I'm not saying Matalas should have hit them over the head with the scripts, there SHOULD be some kind of talk but the writers should always make it clear that they're the ones in charge.
I mean they fell into a hellhole already when they based the entire idea of PIC on Sir Patrick and what he felt comfortable with instead of saying "this is what we established for him and what makes sense for him, you can have a say over some scenes play out like you had on TNG but that's it, take it or leave it". I know they only did this because he wouldn't have agreed with the show otherwise but still. Then he would have said no. Take the no and film the Short Trek you originally wanted where a young JLP meets Uhura (that's where the whole PIC disaster of "let's pitch something to Patrick Stewart" originated from).
I mean they still would have made a mess of things with PIC because they hired a novel writer instead of a television writer but at least Jean-Luc would have been more in character. Of course Sir Patrick didn't write the show, I don't like THAT myth either... but the whole show came to be only because he was asked to give his blessings. That's not how things should work. I don't blame him. He just saw an opportunity to play a new thing. That's what actors do. I blame those who approached him with this kind of attitude. They should have left it all well enough alone and should have just done their Short Trek.
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Post by Prometheus59650 on May 3, 2024 15:28:57 GMT
I agree. Much of PIC S3 makes stand-ups of these people do things. (What do i want Riker to do? as opposed to, What would Riker do?) and it makes me cringe because I know these people, or at least thought I did. Yeah I get what you mean. The whole "well they're older now" narrative doesn't work at all, no matter if we're talking JLP on PIC's first two seasons or all of the TNG crew in season 3. The worst idea was to ask the cast where they think their characters are now and to then follow their advice instead of re-watching TNG (and in Worf's case also DS9) and coming up with something that actually makes sense for the character. Gates McFadden still defends Crusher's nonsense explanation of why Crusher never told Jean-Luc she was pregnant with his child, just as much as she still thinks "The Host" sent a great message to the LGBT community... this alone should have told them to maybe not ask the cast for too much input.
What IS it with asking the cast. They last played these characters a zillion years ago. They don't remember most of what happened on TNG. They just took wild guesses as to what their characters are up to now based on the few moments they remember from TNG. It boggles the mind. Actors are actors, not writers. I mean yeah, sure, they can have SOME say, I'm not saying Matalas should have hit them over the head with the scripts, there SHOULD be some kind of talk but the writers should always make it clear that they're the ones in charge. I mean they fell into a hellhole already when they based the entire idea of PIC on Sir Patrick and what he felt comfortable with instead of saying "this is what we established for him and what makes sense for him, you can have a say over some scenes play out like you had on TNG but that's it, take it or leave it". I know they only did this because he wouldn't have agreed with the show otherwise but still. Then he would have said no. Take the no and film the Short Trek you originally wanted where a young JLP meets Uhura (that's where the whole PIC disaster of "let's pitch something to Patrick Stewart" originated from). I mean they still would have made a mess of things with PIC because they hired a novel writer instead of a television writer but at least Jean-Luc would have been more in character. Of course Sir Patrick didn't write the show, I don't like THAT myth either... but the whole show came to be only because he was asked to give his blessings. That's not how things should work. I don't blame him. He just saw an opportunity to play a new thing. That's what actors do. I blame those who approached him with this kind of attitude. They should have left it all well enough alone and should have just done their Short Trek.
I have to wonder why you'd ask the actor where they think the character is 30 years after the fact. Maybe they actually have a kernel of an idea that you can use, but I don't understand why it was done as was basically done with Stweart/Picard, with Picard being written as Stewart saw him? How much do any of them remember in context of the character? They come in and do the scene, and maybe they remember it because it was a powerful scene...or they remember the episode because the craft services table flipped over or that was the week one of the lighting guys cut his hand open. It seems that very few actors watch their finished work, at least according to interviews with various actors over decades that I've seen. I think that's fine in general, but if you're going to revisit this thing a generation down the road, I think it's kind of important to do so, so that you can remember what happened to this character and to get a sense of him as others have seen him for three decades. I think that's critical context that you need. And, I think Matalas was far too fanboy about the material to the point that he couldn't look at it objectively. There was no one to tell HIM "no" either and he doesn't seem like a man who can self-censor or critique. As for Mcfadden, after attending many a convention at this point, I can tell you two things: it doesn't take a lot to get her sounding defensive about Crusher and she's always had an overinflated sense of the character's importance or impact. For me, personally, she's the last Trek doctor I'd wanna set up an appointment with. |
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Post by MrPicard on May 4, 2024 13:09:51 GMT
The worst thing is that Sir Patrick has said that the whole idea for the show that they approached him with is nothing like what we eventually got. So, they somehow managed to make it all even WORSE. (He said the only thing that remained from the pitch they gave him was the bit about Romulan refugees.) The basic idea was the same tho, of course - "he has changed and so have you". Which in itself is not a bad premise. It's logical. In my work I've also written a changed Jean-Luc when he is older. It wouldn't make sense for him to be the same guy he was at the end of Nemesis. That part I agree with.
I can see where Sir Patrick was coming from. Back in the TNG days he was so intertwined with Jean-Luc at some point that he didn't have to act anymore. (He even had to go to therapy because of this.) The mistake this time was that he thought he could do this all over again. Just jump in and be JLP again. I totally get his approach. Problem is that nobody had the heart to sit down with him and tell him "Patrick, you can only do this if you re-visit who Jean-Luc was. You can't rely on your selective memory. You have to re-watch TNG, maybe not in its entirety but quite a few JLP centric episodes. And re-discover the guy. And THEN you can develop a future for him. It's the only way to remain faithful to who this man is. You can't just use your life as it is now. You are not JLP anymore, you are Patrick now. You need to find JLP again first." That's the critical context indeed. Especially for a character like Jean-Luc Picard, who is one of the few truly fleshed out TNG characters. It's no wonder that people ended up saying "this is just Patrick Stewart". Because it is. It's not Jean-Luc Picard. It's who Sir Patrick is now, in a 24th/25th century setting. It's like as if he sat down and wrote a fic with a self insert alter ego that lives in the future. (Trust me, I know THAT one, lol.)
And yeah. Matalas was too fanboy. He was too obsessed with his own story. In some way I almost understand him. Imagine someone hands you the keys to the franchise and says "make your fan fic canon". The temptation to go absolutely wild and put your own story before the characters would be incredibly strong. Of course, a good writer would not do so, but then, we're talking about Matalas here...
Yeah I know, McFadden defends Crusher at every possible opportunity. Same as Crusher's fangirl entourage on Twitter. They glorify every word she says and defend every single decision she makes. It's downright scary. But even THEY weren't happy with the pregnancy thing. Some of them, anyway. Others made comments such as "Picard deserved not to know, he was such a pompous jerk". Umm. Yeah. Right. If he had been an actual abusive jerk then yeah, not telling him would have been justified, but we're talking about the softest dork in the history of soft dorks here. Is he pompous? Yes. Is he arrogant? Yes. Is he annoying? Yes. But none of this justifies not telling him that he has a freaking kid.
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Post by Prometheus59650 on May 4, 2024 20:04:16 GMT
The worst thing is that Sir Patrick has said that the whole idea for the show that they approached him with is nothing like what we eventually got. So, they somehow managed to make it all even WORSE. (He said the only thing that remained from the pitch they gave him was the bit about Romulan refugees.) The basic idea was the same tho, of course - "he has changed and so have you". Which in itself is not a bad premise. It's logical. In my work I've also written a changed Jean-Luc when he is older. It wouldn't make sense for him to be the same guy he was at the end of Nemesis. That part I agree with. I can see where Sir Patrick was coming from. Back in the TNG days he was so intertwined with Jean-Luc at some point that he didn't have to act anymore. (He even had to go to therapy because of this.) The mistake this time was that he thought he could do this all over again. Just jump in and be JLP again. I totally get his approach. Problem is that nobody had the heart to sit down with him and tell him "Patrick, you can only do this if you re-visit who Jean-Luc was. You can't rely on your selective memory. You have to re-watch TNG, maybe not in its entirety but quite a few JLP centric episodes. And re-discover the guy. And THEN you can develop a future for him. It's the only way to remain faithful to who this man is. You can't just use your life as it is now. You are not JLP anymore, you are Patrick now. You need to find JLP again first." That's the critical context indeed. Especially for a character like Jean-Luc Picard, who is one of the few truly fleshed out TNG characters. It's no wonder that people ended up saying "this is just Patrick Stewart". Because it is. It's not Jean-Luc Picard. It's who Sir Patrick is now, in a 24th/25th century setting. It's like as if he sat down and wrote a fic with a self insert alter ego that lives in the future. (Trust me, I know THAT one, lol.) And yeah. Matalas was too fanboy. He was too obsessed with his own story. In some way I almost understand him. Imagine someone hands you the keys to the franchise and says "make your fan fic canon". The temptation to go absolutely wild and put your own story before the characters would be incredibly strong. Of course, a good writer would not do so, but then, we're talking about Matalas here... Yeah I know, McFadden defends Crusher at every possible opportunity. Same as Crusher's fangirl entourage on Twitter. They glorify every word she says and defend every single decision she makes. It's downright scary. But even THEY weren't happy with the pregnancy thing. Some of them, anyway. Others made comments such as "Picard deserved not to know, he was such a pompous jerk". Umm. Yeah. Right. If he had been an actual abusive jerk then yeah, not telling him would have been justified, but we're talking about the softest dork in the history of soft dorks here. Is he pompous? Yes. Is he arrogant? Yes. Is he annoying? Yes. But none of this justifies not telling him that he has a freaking kid. Give me the keys and I think I have good ideas for various things, and I might be able to write well, but I think you need talented, seasoned, strong-willed people in the writer's room that can say, "That's great." Or, "There are elements in this that are good, but, what if we did THIS with them instead of that." Or, "Yeah. I have to say this. I know your heart's in the right place, but that sucks, and here are all the reasons why." As for Crusher not telling Picard? Yes, he's annoying. He's arrogant. He can be irritating. Is he emotionally unavailable. Yeah, I think so. Is he a physical or psychologically abusive threat to the child? Absolutely not. So, yes, you absolutely tell him, let the chips fall where they may, and you both navigate the debris with the best interests of the child at heart. There's no justification whatsoever to deny him the choices that come with knowing. This was soap opera-grade psychotic behavior. |
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Post by MrPicard on May 14, 2024 4:56:17 GMT
The worst thing is that Sir Patrick has said that the whole idea for the show that they approached him with is nothing like what we eventually got. So, they somehow managed to make it all even WORSE. (He said the only thing that remained from the pitch they gave him was the bit about Romulan refugees.) The basic idea was the same tho, of course - "he has changed and so have you". Which in itself is not a bad premise. It's logical. In my work I've also written a changed Jean-Luc when he is older. It wouldn't make sense for him to be the same guy he was at the end of Nemesis. That part I agree with. I can see where Sir Patrick was coming from. Back in the TNG days he was so intertwined with Jean-Luc at some point that he didn't have to act anymore. (He even had to go to therapy because of this.) The mistake this time was that he thought he could do this all over again. Just jump in and be JLP again. I totally get his approach. Problem is that nobody had the heart to sit down with him and tell him "Patrick, you can only do this if you re-visit who Jean-Luc was. You can't rely on your selective memory. You have to re-watch TNG, maybe not in its entirety but quite a few JLP centric episodes. And re-discover the guy. And THEN you can develop a future for him. It's the only way to remain faithful to who this man is. You can't just use your life as it is now. You are not JLP anymore, you are Patrick now. You need to find JLP again first." That's the critical context indeed. Especially for a character like Jean-Luc Picard, who is one of the few truly fleshed out TNG characters. It's no wonder that people ended up saying "this is just Patrick Stewart". Because it is. It's not Jean-Luc Picard. It's who Sir Patrick is now, in a 24th/25th century setting. It's like as if he sat down and wrote a fic with a self insert alter ego that lives in the future. (Trust me, I know THAT one, lol.) And yeah. Matalas was too fanboy. He was too obsessed with his own story. In some way I almost understand him. Imagine someone hands you the keys to the franchise and says "make your fan fic canon". The temptation to go absolutely wild and put your own story before the characters would be incredibly strong. Of course, a good writer would not do so, but then, we're talking about Matalas here... Yeah I know, McFadden defends Crusher at every possible opportunity. Same as Crusher's fangirl entourage on Twitter. They glorify every word she says and defend every single decision she makes. It's downright scary. But even THEY weren't happy with the pregnancy thing. Some of them, anyway. Others made comments such as "Picard deserved not to know, he was such a pompous jerk". Umm. Yeah. Right. If he had been an actual abusive jerk then yeah, not telling him would have been justified, but we're talking about the softest dork in the history of soft dorks here. Is he pompous? Yes. Is he arrogant? Yes. Is he annoying? Yes. But none of this justifies not telling him that he has a freaking kid. Give me the keys and I think I have good ideas for various things, and I might be able to write well, but I think you need talented, seasoned, strong-willed people in the writer's room that can say, "That's great." Or, "There are elements in this that are good, but, what if we did THIS with them instead of that." Or, "Yeah. I have to say this. I know your heart's in the right place, but that sucks, and here are all the reasons why." As for Crusher not telling Picard? Yes, he's annoying. He's arrogant. He can be irritating. Is he emotionally unavailable. Yeah, I think so. Is he a physical or psychologically abusive threat to the child? Absolutely not. So, yes, you absolutely tell him, let the chips fall where they may, and you both navigate the debris with the best interests of the child at heart. There's no justification whatsoever to deny him the choices that come with knowing. This was soap opera-grade psychotic behavior. I can only say it's not easy to write Jean-Luc Picard as a character, never has been, never will, and there are so many holes and pits you can fall into that it's an absolute MUST to be aware of the character's nuances and origins and story. If you don't know the details OR, like PIC did, ignore large chunks of his story AND try to squeeze his character into a story you've already lost. That's why the first two PIC seasons are so grating. They don't fit to what we know of Jean-Luc, and "oh he has aged" doesn't explain it at all. I can see where they come from with their ideas and I know Sir Patrick's heart was in the right place, but that only makes it all even more frustrating. And yes, they should have had writers who simply said "no we can't do this". They would have had some leeway with Jean-Luc. I totally agree that he should be in a different place now than he was in Nemesis. But that different place didn't have to be him sulking on his vineyard. He could still have been sulking. But as a grumpy archeologist crawling through caves, excavating artifacts. He left Starfleet after a MASSIVE incident (I do like THAT idea, I also think it was inevitable that this happened, what with his arrogance and self-righteousness and the high standards he always held Starfleet to but always failed to realize that it didn't MATCH those standards) and then decided to run and pursue his love for archeology. This is what I mean when I say "I get where they came from with their ideas but they should have made them fit to his character and taken his history into account". But hey. They opted for "letting a novel writer do the first season, a rabid TOS fan the second and a 13 year old fanboy's fic the third" instead of simply hiring writers who knew Jean-Luc Picard inside and out as a character and who also could have told Sir Patrick the truth - that even though Jean-Luc has changed now, at his core he would still have to be the JLP we knew, otherwise the show wouldn't make an ounce of sense and would leave everyone confused. And "no, Patrick, just because YOU went through this doesn't mean you can project this on Picard. He is not your 24th century self insert anymore". But, alas.
And yeah I agree. He would have struggled MASSIVELY with being a dad. But he would have tried. Crusher didn't even give him an OPTION to try. She put her own self interest before that of her child. And then she claims she told Jack he could see his dad. Yeah. After what was probably two decades of her badmouthing Jean-Luc. Of course the guy didn't want to meet his dad. FFS. There was no need whatsoever for this. Just because she had a broken relationship with Jean-Luc doesn't justify what she did. Part of me kinda wishes Jean-Luc and Jack (after actually learning how NOT to be a total brat, but then, given who raised him it's no surprise he acts the way he does) would dump her because they're both super mad and she ends up losing everyone all over again, just like she lost Wesley. Would serve her right. Sorry but not sorry. At all.
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Post by Prometheus59650 on May 14, 2024 19:09:17 GMT
Give me the keys and I think I have good ideas for various things, and I might be able to write well, but I think you need talented, seasoned, strong-willed people in the writer's room that can say, "That's great." Or, "There are elements in this that are good, but, what if we did THIS with them instead of that." Or, "Yeah. I have to say this. I know your heart's in the right place, but that sucks, and here are all the reasons why." As for Crusher not telling Picard? Yes, he's annoying. He's arrogant. He can be irritating. Is he emotionally unavailable. Yeah, I think so. Is he a physical or psychologically abusive threat to the child? Absolutely not. So, yes, you absolutely tell him, let the chips fall where they may, and you both navigate the debris with the best interests of the child at heart. There's no justification whatsoever to deny him the choices that come with knowing. This was soap opera-grade psychotic behavior. I can only say it's not easy to write Jean-Luc Picard as a character, never has been, never will, and there are so many holes and pits you can fall into that it's an absolute MUST to be aware of the character's nuances and origins and story. If you don't know the details OR, like PIC did, ignore large chunks of his story AND try to squeeze his character into a story you've already lost. That's why the first two PIC seasons are so grating. They don't fit to what we know of Jean-Luc, and "oh he has aged" doesn't explain it at all. I can see where they come from with their ideas and I know Sir Patrick's heart was in the right place, but that only makes it all even more frustrating. And yes, they should have had writers who simply said "no we can't do this". They would have had some leeway with Jean-Luc. I totally agree that he should be in a different place now than he was in Nemesis. But that different place didn't have to be him sulking on his vineyard. He could still have been sulking. But as a grumpy archeologist crawling through caves, excavating artifacts. He left Starfleet after a MASSIVE incident (I do like THAT idea, I also think it was inevitable that this happened, what with his arrogance and self-righteousness and the high standards he always held Starfleet to but always failed to realize that it didn't MATCH those standards) and then decided to run and pursue his love for archeology. This is what I mean when I say "I get where they came from with their ideas but they should have made them fit to his character and taken his history into account". But hey. They opted for "letting a novel writer do the first season, a rabid TOS fan the second and a 13 year old fanboy's fic the third" instead of simply hiring writers who knew Jean-Luc Picard inside and out as a character and who also could have told Sir Patrick the truth - that even though Jean-Luc has changed now, at his core he would still have to be the JLP we knew, otherwise the show wouldn't make an ounce of sense and would leave everyone confused. And "no, Patrick, just because YOU went through this doesn't mean you can project this on Picard. He is not your 24th century self insert anymore". But, alas.
And yeah I agree. He would have struggled MASSIVELY with being a dad. But he would have tried. Crusher didn't even give him an OPTION to try. She put her own self interest before that of her child. And then she claims she told Jack he could see his dad. Yeah. After what was probably two decades of her badmouthing Jean-Luc. Of course the guy didn't want to meet his dad. FFS. There was no need whatsoever for this. Just because she had a broken relationship with Jean-Luc doesn't justify what she did. Part of me kinda wishes Jean-Luc and Jack (after actually learning how NOT to be a total brat, but then, given who raised him it's no surprise he acts the way he does) would dump her because they're both super mad and she ends up losing everyone all over again, just like she lost Wesley. Would serve her right. Sorry but not sorry. At all.
Of course JLP is in a different place in PIC, but, what gets me is that, I believe in S1 he basically says he's just at home waiting to die. That's not JLP. I get it. he's suffered setbacks. The fall of Romulus was a disaster. Starfleet wasn't what he thought it was. (I could have told him that) But the Picard I knew would have retreated for a while, regrouped, then kept trying to make a difference. Somehow. Somewhere. No one who spent so much of his speaking voice talking about the wonders and value of life is just gonna run off and hide in the family house waiting to clock out. And if he IS THAT broken? Soji doesn't get him out of it. No one does because you've broken the core of his being, I think. You might as well have him get a good fire going and settle in with a nice book and some poisoned wine. Re: Bev...I don't know how else that could have gone. She HAD to have trashed him and have done so for years. You can't tell this kid that he was a great captain and a fine man, but, no, he doesn't know about you and I'm not taking you to see him. Tell him that and that teenager is going to run away to find Dad. Tell him anything other than things that will make the kid hate/not be interested, and he's going to want to meet his father. You just couldn't keep that tight a lid on it for his entire childhood otherwise. I'd love to see them both dump her. Then you end up probably in a scene with her and holo-Jean-Luc and Holo-Jack where she gets the last word (because that's who she is) and blamed them for abandoning her and rattling off all the reasons everything she did was exactly right. |
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Post by Sehlat Vie on May 18, 2024 3:17:58 GMT
...Explains Terry Matalas, helpfully. A lot of what he's talking about - "exposition dumps" - "nobody cares" - is just bad writing. Explanations and exposition are supposed to be seeded throughout drama, so the audience doesn't notice them. There are ways of making it work. Or at least, the situ he is describing, is something that needs to be attended to by a script editor - or, at the very least - an exec. Which was his job. To be fair, it's true they had to contend with Covid and all the new rules of production after the pandemic, and the lack of time was a huge problem. But wow, we have here an explanation for why S2 was as woefully shoddy as it was, with all those different, undercooked ideas never coming to fruition. I still haven't been able to go back and watch S3, which I thought was also awful and for the same reasons, but I was outvoted by an overwhelming wave of collective fan nostalgia which seems to think it was one of the best seasons of Trek ever. But there it is, for all to see. They really, really needed a good script doctor. Maybe some of the fan service that stands in for actual character evolution and drama would still have got through, but I can't help thinking it's possible they might've been talked out of some of the lamer ideas. I prefer to think that PIC ended at the end of season 1. What followed afterward were s#!t. I cannot rewatch them, they were so awful. |
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Post by Sehlat Vie on May 18, 2024 3:23:26 GMT
How much Star Trek have you watched? Literally everything except for Lower Decks. I quit that nonsense after season 1. Watched 5 episodes of S1; watched the season finale, and that was all I could stomach. It's just not for me. When I heard it was coming to an end after season 5, all I could think was; great--now spend whatever money/resources allocated for that show on something that doesn't malign the franchise for $#!ts and giggles and insults the fans. |
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Post by Sehlat Vie on May 18, 2024 3:26:19 GMT
The worst thing is that Sir Patrick has said that the whole idea for the show that they approached him with is nothing like what we eventually got. So, they somehow managed to make it all even WORSE. (He said the only thing that remained from the pitch they gave him was the bit about Romulan refugees.) The basic idea was the same tho, of course - "he has changed and so have you". Which in itself is not a bad premise. It's logical. In my work I've also written a changed Jean-Luc when he is older. It wouldn't make sense for him to be the same guy he was at the end of Nemesis. That part I agree with. I can see where Sir Patrick was coming from. Back in the TNG days he was so intertwined with Jean-Luc at some point that he didn't have to act anymore. (He even had to go to therapy because of this.) The mistake this time was that he thought he could do this all over again. Just jump in and be JLP again. I totally get his approach. Problem is that nobody had the heart to sit down with him and tell him "Patrick, you can only do this if you re-visit who Jean-Luc was. You can't rely on your selective memory. You have to re-watch TNG, maybe not in its entirety but quite a few JLP centric episodes. And re-discover the guy. And THEN you can develop a future for him. It's the only way to remain faithful to who this man is. You can't just use your life as it is now. You are not JLP anymore, you are Patrick now. You need to find JLP again first." That's the critical context indeed. Especially for a character like Jean-Luc Picard, who is one of the few truly fleshed out TNG characters. It's no wonder that people ended up saying "this is just Patrick Stewart". Because it is. It's not Jean-Luc Picard. It's who Sir Patrick is now, in a 24th/25th century setting. It's like as if he sat down and wrote a fic with a self insert alter ego that lives in the future. (Trust me, I know THAT one, lol.) And yeah. Matalas was too fanboy. He was too obsessed with his own story. In some way I almost understand him. Imagine someone hands you the keys to the franchise and says "make your fan fic canon". The temptation to go absolutely wild and put your own story before the characters would be incredibly strong. Of course, a good writer would not do so, but then, we're talking about Matalas here... Yeah I know, McFadden defends Crusher at every possible opportunity. Same as Crusher's fangirl entourage on Twitter. They glorify every word she says and defend every single decision she makes. It's downright scary. But even THEY weren't happy with the pregnancy thing. Some of them, anyway. Others made comments such as "Picard deserved not to know, he was such a pompous jerk". Umm. Yeah. Right. If he had been an actual abusive jerk then yeah, not telling him would have been justified, but we're talking about the softest dork in the history of soft dorks here. Is he pompous? Yes. Is he arrogant? Yes. Is he annoying? Yes. But none of this justifies not telling him that he has a freaking kid. Give me the keys and I think I have good ideas for various things, and I might be able to write well, but I think you need talented, seasoned, strong-willed people in the writer's room that can say, "That's great." Or, "There are elements in this that are good, but, what if we did THIS with them instead of that." Or, "Yeah. I have to say this. I know your heart's in the right place, but that sucks, and here are all the reasons why." As for Crusher not telling Picard? Yes, he's annoying. He's arrogant. He can be irritating. Is he emotionally unavailable. Yeah, I think so. Is he a physical or psychologically abusive threat to the child? Absolutely not. So, yes, you absolutely tell him, let the chips fall where they may, and you both navigate the debris with the best interests of the child at heart. There's no justification whatsoever to deny him the choices that come with knowing. This was soap opera-grade psychotic behavior. None of it felt like it was coming from those characters we knew for 7 years. Most in my circle have been friends of mine for over 30 years at this point in my life; yes, people change. Their priorities change. Even their politics can change. But their fundamental personalities DO NOT. |
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Post by MrPicard on May 18, 2024 5:11:07 GMT
I can only say it's not easy to write Jean-Luc Picard as a character, never has been, never will, and there are so many holes and pits you can fall into that it's an absolute MUST to be aware of the character's nuances and origins and story. If you don't know the details OR, like PIC did, ignore large chunks of his story AND try to squeeze his character into a story you've already lost. That's why the first two PIC seasons are so grating. They don't fit to what we know of Jean-Luc, and "oh he has aged" doesn't explain it at all. I can see where they come from with their ideas and I know Sir Patrick's heart was in the right place, but that only makes it all even more frustrating. And yes, they should have had writers who simply said "no we can't do this". They would have had some leeway with Jean-Luc. I totally agree that he should be in a different place now than he was in Nemesis. But that different place didn't have to be him sulking on his vineyard. He could still have been sulking. But as a grumpy archeologist crawling through caves, excavating artifacts. He left Starfleet after a MASSIVE incident (I do like THAT idea, I also think it was inevitable that this happened, what with his arrogance and self-righteousness and the high standards he always held Starfleet to but always failed to realize that it didn't MATCH those standards) and then decided to run and pursue his love for archeology. This is what I mean when I say "I get where they came from with their ideas but they should have made them fit to his character and taken his history into account". But hey. They opted for "letting a novel writer do the first season, a rabid TOS fan the second and a 13 year old fanboy's fic the third" instead of simply hiring writers who knew Jean-Luc Picard inside and out as a character and who also could have told Sir Patrick the truth - that even though Jean-Luc has changed now, at his core he would still have to be the JLP we knew, otherwise the show wouldn't make an ounce of sense and would leave everyone confused. And "no, Patrick, just because YOU went through this doesn't mean you can project this on Picard. He is not your 24th century self insert anymore". But, alas.
And yeah I agree. He would have struggled MASSIVELY with being a dad. But he would have tried. Crusher didn't even give him an OPTION to try. She put her own self interest before that of her child. And then she claims she told Jack he could see his dad. Yeah. After what was probably two decades of her badmouthing Jean-Luc. Of course the guy didn't want to meet his dad. FFS. There was no need whatsoever for this. Just because she had a broken relationship with Jean-Luc doesn't justify what she did. Part of me kinda wishes Jean-Luc and Jack (after actually learning how NOT to be a total brat, but then, given who raised him it's no surprise he acts the way he does) would dump her because they're both super mad and she ends up losing everyone all over again, just like she lost Wesley. Would serve her right. Sorry but not sorry. At all.
Of course JLP is in a different place in PIC, but, what gets me is that, I believe in S1 he basically says he's just at home waiting to die. That's not JLP. I get it. he's suffered setbacks. The fall of Romulus was a disaster. Starfleet wasn't what he thought it was. (I could have told him that) But the Picard I knew would have retreated for a while, regrouped, then kept trying to make a difference. Somehow. Somewhere. No one who spent so much of his speaking voice talking about the wonders and value of life is just gonna run off and hide in the family house waiting to clock out. And if he IS THAT broken? Soji doesn't get him out of it. No one does because you've broken the core of his being, I think. You might as well have him get a good fire going and settle in with a nice book and some poisoned wine. Re: Bev...I don't know how else that could have gone. She HAD to have trashed him and have done so for years. You can't tell this kid that he was a great captain and a fine man, but, no, he doesn't know about you and I'm not taking you to see him. Tell him that and that teenager is going to run away to find Dad. Tell him anything other than things that will make the kid hate/not be interested, and he's going to want to meet his father. You just couldn't keep that tight a lid on it for his entire childhood otherwise. I'd love to see them both dump her. Then you end up probably in a scene with her and holo-Jean-Luc and Holo-Jack where she gets the last word (because that's who she is) and blamed them for abandoning her and rattling off all the reasons everything she did was exactly right. Yes, the Romulus disaster would definitely have made him quit Starfleet and everything about it altogether. They did that right. He would not have forgiven Starfleet, or himself. What also doesn't make sense is the place he retreated to. Not at this point. I could see him retreating to the vineyard after a long life. Hell, I've written this myself several times, that the vineyard is the place where he ends up after he feels he's done. But the JLP a few years after Nemesis? He would not have been done. He would indeed have sulked for a while but then he would have felt the need to get back into space again. He probably would have glanced at his artifact collection at some point and would have felt the old desire to discover and see things again. He's not the type who retreats for years and years. He would still have suffered in silence from what happened with Romulus, and it would have haunted him, just like all his other PTSD experiences do. But this is a guy who is indeed used to being knocked down and then standing up again.
Yes, I'm sure Crusher trashed Jean-Luc when talking to Jack. Maybe not openly, because like you said, if she had trashed him openly he would have run off to see him at some point when he was a teenager or something because teenagers do the exact opposite of what their parents want. She probably did something more insidious - she probably made it all sound like as if Jack would hurt HER if he went to see his father. Like "ooooh honey I can't tell you not to but please keep in mind that your father and I... [blah blah blah]". She probably made her own pain about the failed relationship also Jack's pain. Would fit her character, actually. She always thinks she's right and the only one who has any moral authority on anything. (Remember the whole thing about "humanity" not being ready to fall in love with Odan as a woman? That, right there. Humanity isn't ready because SHE isn't. So, because SHE dumped Jean-Luc Jack has to stay away from him as well, at all costs.)
Honestly if I had been there I'd have had a WORD with her. A LOUD WORD. Which is probably why the writers dumped Laris in the first episode already. I can see her having A WORD with Crusher about what she did to Jean-Luc as well, but we can't have that, the Picard/Crusher shippers needed to see their ship again. Laris who?
I also think PIC should have ended with season 1. I wish they had been told that this is it. That ending would have been salvagable and it actually also kinda made sense for him to end up in space all over again (because that's where he belongs). But nope, they had to run it all into the ground, and thoroughly. |
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Post by Prometheus59650 on May 18, 2024 21:53:43 GMT
Of course JLP is in a different place in PIC, but, what gets me is that, I believe in S1 he basically says he's just at home waiting to die. That's not JLP. I get it. he's suffered setbacks. The fall of Romulus was a disaster. Starfleet wasn't what he thought it was. (I could have told him that) But the Picard I knew would have retreated for a while, regrouped, then kept trying to make a difference. Somehow. Somewhere. No one who spent so much of his speaking voice talking about the wonders and value of life is just gonna run off and hide in the family house waiting to clock out. And if he IS THAT broken? Soji doesn't get him out of it. No one does because you've broken the core of his being, I think. You might as well have him get a good fire going and settle in with a nice book and some poisoned wine. Re: Bev...I don't know how else that could have gone. She HAD to have trashed him and have done so for years. You can't tell this kid that he was a great captain and a fine man, but, no, he doesn't know about you and I'm not taking you to see him. Tell him that and that teenager is going to run away to find Dad. Tell him anything other than things that will make the kid hate/not be interested, and he's going to want to meet his father. You just couldn't keep that tight a lid on it for his entire childhood otherwise. I'd love to see them both dump her. Then you end up probably in a scene with her and holo-Jean-Luc and Holo-Jack where she gets the last word (because that's who she is) and blamed them for abandoning her and rattling off all the reasons everything she did was exactly right. Yes, the Romulus disaster would definitely have made him quit Starfleet and everything about it altogether. They did that right. He would not have forgiven Starfleet, or himself. What also doesn't make sense is the place he retreated to. Not at this point. I could see him retreating to the vineyard after a long life. Hell, I've written this myself several times, that the vineyard is the place where he ends up after he feels he's done. But the JLP a few years after Nemesis? He would not have been done. He would indeed have sulked for a while but then he would have felt the need to get back into space again. He probably would have glanced at his artifact collection at some point and would have felt the old desire to discover and see things again. He's not the type who retreats for years and years. He would still have suffered in silence from what happened with Romulus, and it would have haunted him, just like all his other PTSD experiences do. But this is a guy who is indeed used to being knocked down and then standing up again. Yes, I'm sure Crusher trashed Jean-Luc when talking to Jack. Maybe not openly, because like you said, if she had trashed him openly he would have run off to see him at some point when he was a teenager or something because teenagers do the exact opposite of what their parents want. She probably did something more insidious - she probably made it all sound like as if Jack would hurt HER if he went to see his father. Like "ooooh honey I can't tell you not to but please keep in mind that your father and I... [blah blah blah]". She probably made her own pain about the failed relationship also Jack's pain. Would fit her character, actually. She always thinks she's right and the only one who has any moral authority on anything. (Remember the whole thing about "humanity" not being ready to fall in love with Odan as a woman? That, right there. Humanity isn't ready because SHE isn't. So, because SHE dumped Jean-Luc Jack has to stay away from him as well, at all costs.) Honestly if I had been there I'd have had a WORD with her. A LOUD WORD. Which is probably why the writers dumped Laris in the first episode already. I can see her having A WORD with Crusher about what she did to Jean-Luc as well, but we can't have that, the Picard/Crusher shippers needed to see their ship again. Laris who?
I also think PIC should have ended with season 1. I wish they had been told that this is it. That ending would have been salvagable and it actually also kinda made sense for him to end up in space all over again (because that's where he belongs). But nope, they had to run it all into the ground, and thoroughly. Absolutely how Beverly would have played it. It would have been years of behavior like a Jewish mother on a sitcom. "I've told you all about him and how he has no room for you, but you go ahead and go. Break your mother's heart then, I'll be fine." Years of being ground down like that? That would keep him in his place. And, with Odan, "Humanity" isn't ready because SHE isn't. But if she blames "humanity" for that, then she's off the hook. She doesn't have to come to grips with the fact that she's not as socially evolved as she tells herself she is. The worst part is, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the fact that she can't make the adjustment. I don't blame her. We all are how we all are. If she needs someone in a form that fits "human male" to be attracted? Okay. She fails miserably because she can't own it. If she had just stopped after she said that she couldn't handle knowing what form Odan would be in tomorrow I could understand. But the truth cannot be allowed to tarnish her sense of self. Look up, "Main Character Syndrome," and you'll find Bev. S2 ran Picard into the ground, S3 took the entire cast of TNG with him. |
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Post by MrPicard on May 21, 2024 4:38:49 GMT
Yup, that's how she would have done it. Guilt-tripping Jack for years and years. Of course he stayed away from his father. As always, it's all about Beverly and her feelings, and damn everyone else. I really loathe how the show made Jean-Luc forgive her just like that. I know it's true to TNG tradition where he's also angry with her for about five seconds no matter what kind of mess she creates and then everything is fine again, but ugh. This is one part where I would NOT have minded if they had deliberately ignored the way things used to be on TNG.
And yeah I'd have understood as well if she had just said she's not ready for female Odan. I know from (painful, but still) experience that this sort of thing just happens. Some people can't make this kind of adjustment. Just because I could doesn't mean everyone else could. But to say humanity isn't ready for this... that's a huge pile of crap. And Gates McFadden still defends this and at the same time claims to be an ally to the lgbtq+ community. It boggles the mind.
The one thing I like about season 2 is the Picard/Q interaction. They got those right (aside from the queerbating aspect, you either go through with things or you don't, there was NO need for half-baked measures, just let Q tell Jean-Luc that he loves him, ffs). If only they had had this throughout the entire season, like they teased. They literally had teaser pics with Jean-Luc and Q all over the place and then Q had like two or three scenes with Jean-Luc in ten whole episodes. What the hell. The scenes were great, granted, but if you promote a season with Q you should make sure Q is actually THERE. Nobody wanted or needed that Not!Laris character. People wanted Q.
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Post by Prometheus59650 on May 21, 2024 20:10:30 GMT
Yup, that's how she would have done it. Guilt-tripping Jack for years and years. Of course he stayed away from his father. As always, it's all about Beverly and her feelings, and damn everyone else. I really loathe how the show made Jean-Luc forgive her just like that. I know it's true to TNG tradition where he's also angry with her for about five seconds no matter what kind of mess she creates and then everything is fine again, but ugh. This is one part where I would NOT have minded if they had deliberately ignored the way things used to be on TNG. And yeah I'd have understood as well if she had just said she's not ready for female Odan. I know from (painful, but still) experience that this sort of thing just happens. Some people can't make this kind of adjustment. Just because I could doesn't mean everyone else could. But to say humanity isn't ready for this... that's a huge pile of crap. And Gates McFadden still defends this and at the same time claims to be an ally to the lgbtq+ community. It boggles the mind. The one thing I like about season 2 is the Picard/Q interaction. They got those right (aside from the queerbating aspect, you either go through with things or you don't, there was NO need for half-baked measures, just let Q tell Jean-Luc that he loves him, ffs). If only they had had this throughout the entire season, like they teased. They literally had teaser pics with Jean-Luc and Q all over the place and then Q had like two or three scenes with Jean-Luc in ten whole episodes. What the hell. The scenes were great, granted, but if you promote a season with Q you should make sure Q is actually THERE. Nobody wanted or needed that Not!Laris character. People wanted Q. *** I never understood that. I mean, I did, and I do, yet I didn't and still don't. Beverly makes messes over and over again, and Picard dresses her down a little and gets harrumph-y, but it's fine. The situation works out just because it does or because he fixes it and all is well. I mean, this woman's attitude almost got the ship destroyed and her son killed ("The High Ground") and her response is... PICARD: We're getting closer to tracing their movements. Actually, it was Wesley who put us onto this dimensional jump of theirs. He has been extraordinary, Beverly. He's going to make a very fine officer. CRUSHER: He's had good role models. I'm sorry. If I'd only gone back to the ship. PICARD: I should have beamed you up.
CRUSHER: You wouldn't dare.
PICARD: Oh yes I would, and should.
CRUSHER: Without my permission?
PICARD: If you don't follow orders.
CRUSHER: If you'd give reasonable orders, I'd obey.
PICARD: Doctor, I will be the judge of reasonable. This. This right here. This would have been the end of it for me, and should have been for Picard or any other CO. You didn't have her beamed up, not because it wasn't correct. Indeed, if you'd beamed her up and at least temporarily broken orbit, none of that would have happened. But he didn't. Because he doesn't wanna hurt her feelings because he has feelings for her. He doesn't wanna have the fight with her, when he NEEDS to have that fight with her. It MUST be settled or she's going to die or get other people killed. He has to have a conversation that admits why he didn't beam her back and why he lets her get away with some of the things she does. Then it has to go to something like, "That must come to an end and it will because I can't function like this and the ship can't. You are not in command here. When we're off the clock, things can be more casual, but when we're on duty there are times when I cannot be your friend and I will no longer defer to that friendship. It is to ME to judge in the moment what a reasonable order is. If you disagree, we can discuss it when time and the situation permits, but you will follow that order." "If you can't, tell me now. If you think I'm not serious, I assure you that I am. It is to me to determine what a reasonable order is. If you believe that you will be the one to decide whether or not it's reasonable and you'll follow it, I will approve your transfer." That's it. And, with Odan, yes, that hurts, but it's just how we all are. But it has never stopped bothering me because she's allegedly 400 years more socially evolved than I am and my own answer is, "I don't know. Let's find out together." I mean, if I'm in a love for the ages story with Jadzia Dax and some quantum filament comes and almost kills her on a mission, leaving her to find a new host and "Nerys" Dax comes to me later and says, "Yes, according to my culture, a new life for the joined has to be a new life. I've tried that, but I feel how I feel, do you think we could continue?" Yeah, sure, you bet'cha. Nooooooooo problem. But if "Julian" Dax says the same thing? ... "I don't know. Let's find out together." Because I really would have to know if there was any part of me that really loved Dax, or if I was just super in love with the form they came in. Maybe it's the latter and that'd be a big, bitter pill to swallow if true, but I'd have to know, and I'm not going to just toss away a chance at loving and being loved like that until I do. Part of what makes Picard and Bev's reconciliation extra unbelievable in S3 was because there's no time for it. It was literally one impending doom after the other. The end should have been a calm, but cool, "We're working on it." And, honestly, the Picard Q relationship in S2, what there was of it, was the best part. |
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Post by MrPicard on May 28, 2024 5:17:52 GMT
Jean-Luc has more chemistry with Q in one single moment on PIC (where Q takes his face into his hands, MY GOD, THE FEELS BETWEEN THEM) than Crusher had with him in ALL of TNG. Q radiates love for Jean-Luc right there. All Crusher ever had for him was an "eh he's okay for a few moments but then he gets insufferable" attitude. Not to mention her inability to separate job and personal life (what with not only conversations like the one mentioned above but also her nagging Jean-Luc about Wesley etc etc). She never should have been aboard the Enterprise in the first place. But IIRC she requested the assignment because she knew Jean-Luc would be there and she'd have a chance to make her "I do what I want" attitude work because there's no way in hell he'd ever throw her off the ship.
Yeah I suppose they could have had Crusher say "let's give it a try" to Odan. Absolutely. Especially given how she's able to accept Odan as Riker without any issues whatsoever but then as soon as Odan's host is a woman it's "humanity isn't ready". But then, given the fact that the director of the episode basically compared trans people to cockroaches I'm not surprised things went the way they did. And, of course, TNG is episodic, so, having any love interest stay beyond one episode was out of the question, so, I guess they had to come up with a way of her saying goodbye to Odan for good. Problem is, they chose the worst way possible.
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Post by RobinBland on May 30, 2024 15:57:43 GMT
...Explains Terry Matalas, helpfully. A lot of what he's talking about - "exposition dumps" - "nobody cares" - is just bad writing. Explanations and exposition are supposed to be seeded throughout drama, so the audience doesn't notice them. There are ways of making it work. Or at least, the situ he is describing, is something that needs to be attended to by a script editor - or, at the very least - an exec. Which was his job. To be fair, it's true they had to contend with Covid and all the new rules of production after the pandemic, and the lack of time was a huge problem. But wow, we have here an explanation for why S2 was as woefully shoddy as it was, with all those different, undercooked ideas never coming to fruition. I still haven't been able to go back and watch S3, which I thought was also awful and for the same reasons, but I was outvoted by an overwhelming wave of collective fan nostalgia which seems to think it was one of the best seasons of Trek ever. But there it is, for all to see. They really, really needed a good script doctor. Maybe some of the fan service that stands in for actual character evolution and drama would still have got through, but I can't help thinking it's possible they might've been talked out of some of the lamer ideas. I prefer to think that PIC ended at the end of season 1. What followed afterward were s#!t. I cannot rewatch them, they were so awful. When you think about it, the character of Picard actually has four endings. All Good Things..., Nemesis, Picard S1 and Picard S3. The first three were written to, effectively, leave the character in a place where fan imagination could carry things forward, no problem. There's a generosity of spirit there in the writing that allows for that, and all three come from different pens and production offices. I never liked the ending of Nemesis particularly, but Data aside, the TNG characters could carry on, largely as you remembered them. S1 of Picard gave you an alternative to that, and although perhaps it wasn't a perfect denouément, the way it gave Data's character a more dignified exit was well-intentioned and I liked it. You could choose any of these endings and your imagination is free to roam with the characters where it wants. Picard S3 seeks to conscript and take charge of the character's future in a way I find objectionable. Not only that, but yeah, all the other TNG characters are taken down with him in S3 (and Guinan in S2). Even the Borg are defanged / emasculated one more time and destroyed as a narrative force. I can't blame the actors... actors will work for money but FFS, Picard S3 really is up there with Star Wars in terms of how it treated legacy characters by fundamentally misunderstanding them and thinking it's enough to just get the faces (or the starships) onscreen. It isn't. It so isn't, and this kind of banal, pandering s#!t-servicing to the lowest common denominator is partially why Hollywood and the creative industries are in such an appalling state these days. If Terry Matalas can become lauded as a great writer of Star Trek, I dunno what's next, but it ain't good. |
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Post by Prometheus59650 on May 30, 2024 18:20:15 GMT
I prefer to think that PIC ended at the end of season 1. What followed afterward were s#!t. I cannot rewatch them, they were so awful. When you think about it, the character of Picard actually has four endings. All Good Things..., Nemesis, Picard S1 and Picard S3. The first three were written to, effectively, leave the character in a place where fan imagination could carry things forward, no problem. There's a generosity of spirit there in the writing that allows for that, and all three come from different pens and production offices. I never liked the ending of Nemesis particularly, but Data aside, the TNG characters could carry on, largely as you remembered them. S1 of Picard gave you an alternative to that, and although perhaps it wasn't a perfect denouément, the way it gave Data's character a more dignified exit was well-intentioned and I liked it. You could choose any of these endings and your imagination is free to roam with the characters where it wants. Picard S3 seeks to conscript and take charge of the character's future in a way I find objectionable. Not only that, but yeah, all the other TNG characters are taken down with him in S3 (and Guinan in S2). Even the Borg are defanged / emasculated one more time and destroyed as a narrative force. I can't blame the actors... actors will work for money but FFS, Picard S3 really is up there with Star Wars in terms of how it treated legacy characters by fundamentally misunderstanding them and thinking it's enough to just get the faces (or the starships) onscreen. It isn't. It so isn't, and this kind of banal, pandering s#!t-servicing to the lowest common denominator is partially why Hollywood and the creative industries are in such an appalling state these days. If Terry Matalas can become lauded as a great writer of Star Trek, I dunno what's next, but it ain't good. And, you know, I dare think that's what most fans want. I really don't think they want finality. Maybe they do occasionally in that they want some loose ends tied off and SOME questions answered, but, for the most part, after years and dozens if not hundreds of hours in that world, it belongs to them. I've met the fantasy writer Terry Brooks several times over the years and when he does Q and A, he has never seemed once to take criticism personally. At some point, someone actually asked him why that was, and he said that, while he's always willing to explain his thoughts as to why he did this or that on one of his books, once it's finished he's...released it. It belongs to the reader now. They can love it. They can hate it. They can hate it until they, with their own imaginations, shape it into something the love with the seeds he'd planted, and they can continue the stories any way they please after they've closed the cover, and more power to them all for doing it. It's sort of easier with a book because it's ultimately created and driven from within, and seeing a TV show play out in front of you it gives more permanence to things and it's harder to dismiss or re-shape. And that's the problem with all of this. With "All Good things..." the human adventure continues without limit. Go live with these characters any way you choose and have them do whatever. Nemesis? Data's death is poorly depicted, but, even with that film...this ends even as it shows new seeds planted. These people are as you remember them. Data will come back, Riker is moving on with the captaincy you always knew he'd take, and Picard is moving on with a smile. It's still all yours. But, with Picard, it sort of murdered the characters so thoroughly in front of your eyes that it even closed off avenues of the imagination, too. I don't want to imagine THIS Riker or THIS Picard moving on. I don't even particularly LIKE them. I don't want to daydream a world to live in with them and imagine what they may be doing now. I think people generally want an ending to the chapter that is the show or film, not the STORY. And Picard tries really hard to end Picard's Riker's and everyone else's story, and in, seemingly deliberately unsatisfying ways. It wrecks everything the viewer has built in 30 years and does so happily. |
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Post by MrPicard on Jun 1, 2024 6:39:44 GMT
When you think about it, the character of Picard actually has four endings. All Good Things..., Nemesis, Picard S1 and Picard S3. The first three were written to, effectively, leave the character in a place where fan imagination could carry things forward, no problem. There's a generosity of spirit there in the writing that allows for that, and all three come from different pens and production offices. I never liked the ending of Nemesis particularly, but Data aside, the TNG characters could carry on, largely as you remembered them. S1 of Picard gave you an alternative to that, and although perhaps it wasn't a perfect denouément, the way it gave Data's character a more dignified exit was well-intentioned and I liked it. You could choose any of these endings and your imagination is free to roam with the characters where it wants. Picard S3 seeks to conscript and take charge of the character's future in a way I find objectionable. Not only that, but yeah, all the other TNG characters are taken down with him in S3 (and Guinan in S2). Even the Borg are defanged / emasculated one more time and destroyed as a narrative force. I can't blame the actors... actors will work for money but FFS, Picard S3 really is up there with Star Wars in terms of how it treated legacy characters by fundamentally misunderstanding them and thinking it's enough to just get the faces (or the starships) onscreen. It isn't. It so isn't, and this kind of banal, pandering s#!t-servicing to the lowest common denominator is partially why Hollywood and the creative industries are in such an appalling state these days. If Terry Matalas can become lauded as a great writer of Star Trek, I dunno what's next, but it ain't good. And, you know, I dare think that's what most fans want. I really don't think they want finality. Maybe they do occasionally in that they want some loose ends tied off and SOME questions answered, but, for the most part, after years and dozens if not hundreds of hours in that world, it belongs to them. I've met the fantasy writer Terry Brooks several times over the years and when he does Q and A, he has never seemed once to take criticism personally. At some point, someone actually asked him why that was, and he said that, while he's always willing to explain his thoughts as to why he did this or that on one of his books, once it's finished he's...released it. It belongs to the reader now. They can love it. They can hate it. They can hate it until they, with their own imaginations, shape it into something the love with the seeds he'd planted, and they can continue the stories any way they please after they've closed the cover, and more power to them all for doing it. It's sort of easier with a book because it's ultimately created and driven from within, and seeing a TV show play out in front of you it gives more permanence to things and it's harder to dismiss or re-shape. And that's the problem with all of this. With "All Good things..." the human adventure continues without limit. Go live with these characters any way you choose and have them do whatever. Nemesis? Data's death is poorly depicted, but, even with that film...this ends even as it shows new seeds planted. These people are as you remember them. Data will come back, Riker is moving on with the captaincy you always knew he'd take, and Picard is moving on with a smile. It's still all yours. But, with Picard, it sort of murdered the characters so thoroughly in front of your eyes that it even closed off avenues of the imagination, too. I don't want to imagine THIS Riker or THIS Picard moving on. I don't even particularly LIKE them. I don't want to daydream a world to live in with them and imagine what they may be doing now. I think people generally want an ending to the chapter that is the show or film, not the STORY. And Picard tries really hard to end Picard's Riker's and everyone else's story, and in, seemingly deliberately unsatisfying ways. It wrecks everything the viewer has built in 30 years and does so happily. This. So much. This is why I "divorced" Jean-Luc and threw away pretty much my entire collection etc. They ruined him with what they did, and I don't want to imagine this Jean-Luc doing things anymore either. Season 1 Jean-Luc would have been fine - I actually found it intriguing that he's a synth now (and I loathe how the show never really did anything with this except telling us that he'd be perfect for taking fresh laundry out of the dryer because he's immune to electrical static or whatever). But not the one after season 3. He's just not a guy I'd want to be married to, sorry but not sorry. I don't agree with the creative choices for him, I don't agree with the whole "Picard needs to face his relationship demons so let's throw Laris and Crusher at him" thing because WHY CAN'T SOMEONE SIMPLY BE SINGLE AND BE OKAY WITH IT. And besides, dude was married for 30 or something years, he knows how to hold up a relationship, why are we ignoring this entire episode and major incident in his life and making him look like a complete n00b just because the actor who plays him used to be a complete n00b regarding this subject as well?
I liked all the endings he previously had even though I'm not fond of "All Good Things..." as an episode - my favorite was actually Nemesis' ending because he was left there in his captain's chair doing what he does best: Commanding a starship. This left the door wide open for imagination, and I think it was a great AND very fitting canonical ending for him as a character. You could go on from here to anywhere. But now? It all just seems so... pointless? Especially since season 3 did its best to undermine what the first two seasons had established. Q is apparently not dead after all, making the whole goodbye meaningless. The zillionth use of the Borg that basically only told us once again "they're still out there". Duh? Laris being shoved out of the way because Crusher had to get the spotlight again - while I'm not a fan of Laris and the whole relationship plot I do wonder how Orla Brady feels about her character basically getting the "I'll call you next time I'm in your neighborhood" treatment while all of season 2 revolved around Jean-Luc finally telling her how he felt and how "totally big" the entire relationship theme was. And Data gets resurrected, too - after giving him a beautiful farewell in the first season. All of this basically leaves you with a feeling of "great... and what exactly was the point of putting me through this emotional rollercoaster from hell? Just to say 'oooh look it's the TNG crew playing poker again'? I'm out of here, who knows what they'll do to him next".
That's another issue I have - what will they do to him NEXT? This isn't over, not by a long shot, given how much the fanboys ate up what Matalas served and how much they're yelling for that Legacy show. Who knows what's next. Whatever it is, it will most likely be even WORSE than what PIC did. And I'm not gonna pick up the pieces in my mind and glue them together again somehow only to then have these people walk in AGAIN and shatter everything all over again by either killing Jean-Luc off or by giving him a wife. I'm not gonna stick around as a fan to find out what their next horrible idea is. No thanks.
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Jun 1, 2024 19:55:53 GMT
And, you know, I dare think that's what most fans want. I really don't think they want finality. Maybe they do occasionally in that they want some loose ends tied off and SOME questions answered, but, for the most part, after years and dozens if not hundreds of hours in that world, it belongs to them. I've met the fantasy writer Terry Brooks several times over the years and when he does Q and A, he has never seemed once to take criticism personally. At some point, someone actually asked him why that was, and he said that, while he's always willing to explain his thoughts as to why he did this or that on one of his books, once it's finished he's...released it. It belongs to the reader now. They can love it. They can hate it. They can hate it until they, with their own imaginations, shape it into something the love with the seeds he'd planted, and they can continue the stories any way they please after they've closed the cover, and more power to them all for doing it. It's sort of easier with a book because it's ultimately created and driven from within, and seeing a TV show play out in front of you it gives more permanence to things and it's harder to dismiss or re-shape. And that's the problem with all of this. With "All Good things..." the human adventure continues without limit. Go live with these characters any way you choose and have them do whatever. Nemesis? Data's death is poorly depicted, but, even with that film...this ends even as it shows new seeds planted. These people are as you remember them. Data will come back, Riker is moving on with the captaincy you always knew he'd take, and Picard is moving on with a smile. It's still all yours. But, with Picard, it sort of murdered the characters so thoroughly in front of your eyes that it even closed off avenues of the imagination, too. I don't want to imagine THIS Riker or THIS Picard moving on. I don't even particularly LIKE them. I don't want to daydream a world to live in with them and imagine what they may be doing now. I think people generally want an ending to the chapter that is the show or film, not the STORY. And Picard tries really hard to end Picard's Riker's and everyone else's story, and in, seemingly deliberately unsatisfying ways. It wrecks everything the viewer has built in 30 years and does so happily. This. So much. This is why I "divorced" Jean-Luc and threw away pretty much my entire collection etc. They ruined him with what they did, and I don't want to imagine this Jean-Luc doing things anymore either. Season 1 Jean-Luc would have been fine - I actually found it intriguing that he's a synth now (and I loathe how the show never really did anything with this except telling us that he'd be perfect for taking fresh laundry out of the dryer because he's immune to electrical static or whatever). But not the one after season 3. He's just not a guy I'd want to be married to, sorry but not sorry. I don't agree with the creative choices for him, I don't agree with the whole "Picard needs to face his relationship demons so let's throw Laris and Crusher at him" thing because WHY CAN'T SOMEONE SIMPLY BE SINGLE AND BE OKAY WITH IT. And besides, dude was married for 30 or something years, he knows how to hold up a relationship, why are we ignoring this entire episode and major incident in his life and making him look like a complete n00b just because the actor who plays him used to be a complete n00b regarding this subject as well?
I liked all the endings he previously had even though I'm not fond of "All Good Things..." as an episode - my favorite was actually Nemesis' ending because he was left there in his captain's chair doing what he does best: Commanding a starship. This left the door wide open for imagination, and I think it was a great AND very fitting canonical ending for him as a character. You could go on from here to anywhere. But now? It all just seems so... pointless? Especially since season 3 did its best to undermine what the first two seasons had established. Q is apparently not dead after all, making the whole goodbye meaningless. The zillionth use of the Borg that basically only told us once again "they're still out there". Duh? Laris being shoved out of the way because Crusher had to get the spotlight again - while I'm not a fan of Laris and the whole relationship plot I do wonder how Orla Brady feels about her character basically getting the "I'll call you next time I'm in your neighborhood" treatment while all of season 2 revolved around Jean-Luc finally telling her how he felt and how "totally big" the entire relationship theme was. And Data gets resurrected, too - after giving him a beautiful farewell in the first season. All of this basically leaves you with a feeling of "great... and what exactly was the point of putting me through this emotional rollercoaster from hell? Just to say 'oooh look it's the TNG crew playing poker again'? I'm out of here, who knows what they'll do to him next". That's another issue I have - what will they do to him NEXT? This isn't over, not by a long shot, given how much the fanboys ate up what Matalas served and how much they're yelling for that Legacy show. Who knows what's next. Whatever it is, it will most likely be even WORSE than what PIC did. And I'm not gonna pick up the pieces in my mind and glue them together again somehow only to then have these people walk in AGAIN and shatter everything all over again by either killing Jean-Luc off or by giving him a wife. I'm not gonna stick around as a fan to find out what their next horrible idea is. No thanks.
For such a pivotal Picard episode as "The Inner Light" was, and, in terms of character you can argue it's number one, it seems to have been utterly dismissed by every writer since as though it never happened at all. It's the perfect way to explain why he's staying single now. He's literally done the married and family life thing already. Or, you can say, "Hey, this is actually a reason that he might want to try it in THIS life now." And that's fair. Okay, you want to go that way, so let's do it. I truly hate to use this term because no one ever really is and, as such, is a very loaded term, but isn't he sort of "fixed" now? Or at least in a way better place personally to have one? He's had a lifetime with a family to self-reflect and navigate everything within him to make it work. It worked because he sustained those relationships. They seemed to be thriving at the end. The Picard that wakes up knows what he's bringing to a relationship and has so many more tools than Farpoint Picard ever did. That Picard can also say, "I miss having someone," find that someone, and know how to make it work. But the impact of the episode on the character was essentially zero. That's sort of understandable because of the nature of episodic television, but it's less forgivable in a series whose point is SPECIFICALLY to pick up his life and carry on. So, in my view, you play it, as, "been there, done that, not again" Or "want to and can without baggage, or at least without the baggage Picard carried in TNG." He will have different baggage, but he's in a very different place. And Data's goodbye in S1 was absolutely everything Nemesis should have been. It was beautiful. But it just couldn't be allowed to be. Neither could Picard. And, while I think the idea of a Legacy series is dead as a doornail, if the S31 film is taken positively in any fashion, I would say a Legacy film is certainly possible. And, I dare say, I'd only be interested in that to watch the trainwreck they'd create. Picard, S2 and 3 destroyed so much of TNG for me that I feel very little attachment to any of it anymore. They can't hurt my feelings now. |
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Post by MrPicard on Jun 3, 2024 5:14:22 GMT
I agree - they could have gone either way with what Inner Light established. But they treated the episode like as if it had never even happened. They went with the public image of Jean-Luc as a dude who is a dorky single with relationship issues who is married to his job. They completely ignored the episode, and this time the excuse of "Patrick Stewart has forgotten TNG" doesn't work anymore either since Inner Light is actually his favorite episode and one that he remembers. AND they even included music from the episode in the show's theme. So no, they didn't forget the episode. They IGNORED it ON PURPOSE. That's what's so infuriating.
I could forgive it on TNG indeed although it annoyed me there as well that they completely ignored the episode's impact there, too. But yes, TNG was episodic and they had their hands full trying to at least make the Borg trauma continue somehow. So I'm more forgiving. But a show that is mostly based on his character? That paints itself as one that "explores" his character? Ignoring Inner Light is a CRIME there. And then they made up a nonsensical reason for why he (in their weird world) "never had a long lasting relationship" - his mother? HUH? I really hated this retcon. It made no sense whatsoever. This entire plot was written by someone who was told "quick, make something up in his childhood that explains why Picard never had a long lasting relationship". While ignoring the fact that he HAD a long lasting relationship and it worked just fine. That's what infuriates me so much. Yes, mistakes happen and some details get lost, sure, but if you ignore things ON PURPOSE just so that you can force your weird story into existence... THAT'S where I draw the line. They did the same thing in Nemesis, and it's one reason why the movie is so hated. They did it on a less bigger scale there, granted, but it was still the same tactic. And then they wondered why people hated it. Same with season 2 here now. Retcon things just to make a point about your story and then wonder why people hate it. They COULD have seen this coming.
It's partly no wonder they told Matalas he had free reign with season 3 and looked the other way when he retconned the crap out of the first two seasons. They KNEW the extent of their nonsense. And it's no wonder Matalas then went full fanboy, too.
I shudder to think of what a PIC movie could do. I'll always shudder. I always said I don't want for them to bring Jean-Luc back, and I always knew why I said that. And I still say it. But I have no doubt they'll bring things back in some way. TNG is still too much of a cash cow to ignore.
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Post by The Founder on Jun 12, 2024 5:50:35 GMT
I am not really a fan of PIC as a whole, but I'd take S3 "TNG fan fic" any day over whatever S1/S2 was. I have a lot of the same problems with PIC as I did with Star Wars Episodes 7-9. Both franchises decided to "continue" an original story, but they were forced to do so decades later. (Thanks a lot, time!) As a result, we had to skip over a lot of years since we've last seen these characters. As a result, gaps had to be filled in but it would be modern writing wanting to do a "dark twist" on where the characters have since gone and we get the same result: the characters haven't really evolved since we last saw them. Picard abandoned Starfleet and just wasted away in his vineyard the same way Luke just abandoned resurrecting the Jedi Order and just wasted away on an island. An absolute waste of both characters and that time gap. Add to the fact that either the writers or Stewart or both wanted to do the "Logan" treatment of a bleak, desolate future where the hero is depressed and grown too old for the modern age. His family and friends are either dead or have moved on without him. Apparently, there is no such thing as an elderly person keeping up with the times. That doesn't exist. They always are stuck in their hay-day and are depressed to no longer be there. We've had nearly twenty years to think up what happened to the TNG crew and I don't think there is a single individual that dreamt up that Picard quit Starfleet out of disgust, never got over Data's death, had a relationship with Crusher that did not pan out, and just sat depressed in his vineyard. (Wasn't that supposed to be the sad alternate timeline in "All Good Things..."  ) I respect and appreciate that Stewart did not want to do S8 of TNG where he is back on the bridge and redoing 90s Star Trek. I honestly do. While I am not a fan of how they wanted to depict a "new" adventure for Picard, I respect that they wanted to try it. I just don't think it stuck the landing. Season 1 wanted to be too many things. It wanted a Borg/Synthetic(Soong Droids/Romulan plot line. Combined with an end of the universe from the Mass Effect Reapers plot line. Combined with a personal plot line of Picard's fall from grace and his return to life. It was a convoluted mess that rehashed old Trek tropes (infiltration by an alien power and the universe is in danger). Season 2 was meant to be another personal journey but it was an even more convoluted mess with alternate timelines, Borg (again), and the throwing away of multiple new characters. An utter mess. I respect that they tried but I never saw it as sticking the landing. So when S3 came around and was like "Screw it, TNG S8 is here." - I honestly felt relieved that the "experiment" of a Non-TNG story was finally over. I was a bit bummed that they just abandoned all the other characters (I think they could have been melded into S3 instead of just thrown away) but it didn't phase me that much. It just goes to show that I didn't really care that much about them. I did like Rios, though. I was highly irritated that his ending was just to die in 21st century Earth... I know I am going to be dismissed as a TNG fanboy that wanted 90s Trek again. I find it amusing as I am more of a DS9 fanboy.  I don't hate TNG but my main Trek love will always be DS9. It's not about me wanting TNG fan fic. It's that S1/S2 were so awful to me that I just felt relieved to have it over and them just going in a different direction. I honestly wish they would have started off with a version of S3 to start off PIC, a soft way of easing us to a new era with a familiar dynamic and then just giving each of them some form of finality in their plot lines (such as Data being given a good send off - one of the few things I liked about S1). A better passing of the torch to the new folks and just having S2 and S3 be Picard moving away to this new life until giving him a final send off. It may have been less jarring. As it stands, it looks like S1 and S2 were not a well received experiment and S3 was a course correction. I suspect ... that is not how they want those 3 seasons to be remembered. |
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Post by MrPicard on Jun 17, 2024 13:29:38 GMT
Given how Matalas seems to have realized that season 2 was going to suck since he ducked out of it to focus on season 3 which basically undid a lot of what the first two seasons had established... my guess is that they knew season 1 had been received with "huh... meh" and season 2 would be received with "what the hell"... so, they felt "alright alright, we're gonna give the fanboys what they wanted". They retconned their own show in the process of making it (since the third season was shot immediately after the second). That's quite an accomplishment. And not one that speaks for them as writers/producers.
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I don't hate TNG but my main Trek love will always be DS9. It's not about me wanting TNG fan fic. It's that S1/S2 were so awful to me that I just felt relieved to have it over and them just going in a different direction. I honestly wish they would have started off with a version of S3 to start off PIC, a soft way of easing us to a new era with a familiar dynamic and then just giving each of them some form of finality in their plot lines (such as Data being given a good send off - one of the few things I liked about S1). A better passing of the torch to the new folks and just having S2 and S3 be Picard moving away to this new life until giving him a final send off. It may have been less jarring. As it stands, it looks like S1 and S2 were not a well received experiment and S3 was a course correction. I suspect ... that is not how they want those 3 seasons to be remembered.
I am so sorry...