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Post by Tupperfan on Apr 21, 2023 3:22:10 GMT
Good point. It's reducing Trek to catchphrases, blips, zings, one-liners, etc... Since when does the 'engage' word matter? I suppose Picard made it a thing way back when but that wasn't intentional. It just happened organically. This is manufactured. I don't mind it that much. All navy's have odd traditions that just kind of grow. It seems harmless. I don't disagree, it's just the fact that two Trek shows released withing the same general time highlight the same thing, having nearly the same scene. It's like DIS and PIC having similar series-long AI stories at about the same time. It just feels like it shouldn't happen. |
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Post by scenario on Apr 21, 2023 4:12:56 GMT
I don't mind it that much. All navy's have odd traditions that just kind of grow. It seems harmless. I don't disagree, it's just the fact that two Trek shows released withing the same general time highlight the same thing, having nearly the same scene. It's like DIS and PIC having similar series-long AI stories at about the same time. It just feels like it shouldn't happen. If there were two weddings shown and both brides wore white would that cause a problem? "Do you xxx take thee..." They used the same dialog! Ships don't set sail on a Friday.... The AI stories were bad. |
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Post by RobinBland on Apr 21, 2023 11:47:57 GMT
Come back Stuart Baird, all is forgiven…
[Not really]
…But as others have remarked, at least that open-ended finalé allowed for one’s own imagination to boldly go. Truthfully, for all the later additions to the lore, All Good Things… has never been bettered. I may sound like an old fart, but from a writer’s point-of-view, it’s true.
Picard S1 was a good try, and at least it attempted to do something new. However, S2 and S3? Waste of time.
I understand why all the actors did S3 and all the work that went into it, but I’m left with an impression that the end result was so empty, so bereft of anything original, that it eschews Trek’s core principles of “boldly going.” It was a party really, a celebration of what has been, and that seems fine for many, but there were so many holes of plot and logic (and taste) in this self-indulgent joke of a teleplay, I can’t bring myself to recognize it in my own personal pantheon of Star Trek.
What I might do for SNW S2 is wait for all episodes to go up, then binge it. I’m sure it’ll be fine, but I just ain’t feelin’ this era much. Star Trek was always a big media franchise, but while watching S3E10 of Picard, I’ve never been so conscious that I am being “catered to.” That I’m being given “what I want,” but this isn’t what I want.
Well, the good news is, I managed to cancel my Paramount+ subscription before the next billing cycle kicked in. Whoop-de-doo. Capitalism in action.
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Post by Tupperfan on Apr 21, 2023 14:14:01 GMT
I don't disagree, it's just the fact that two Trek shows released withing the same general time highlight the same thing, having nearly the same scene. It's like DIS and PIC having similar series-long AI stories at about the same time. It just feels like it shouldn't happen. If there were two weddings shown and both brides wore white would that cause a problem? "Do you xxx take thee..." They used the same dialog! Ships don't set sail on a Friday.... The AI stories were bad. I understand what you're saying, but I don't think your exemple is that relevant: A wedding scene is a cultural trope that is expected by most audiences in the Western world to go a certain way (and a good writer/team will find ways to make it feel different, especially if they compare two weddings). I also understand that Navies have their traditions, it's just the way they are trying to suddenly highlight, in a relatively coordinated way and through dialogue, the "starship going to warp line" as something that had importance throughout Starfleet's history despite the fact that's it's actually a modern Trek trope (going back to the Kelvin-verse in my opinion). And it's not the "go" line that annoys me, it's the fact that they mention it in dialogue on multiple occasions. It feels clumsy and repetitive (going back to frequently mentioned themes that modern Trek writing seems to want to check boxes, which is probably where the AI-written criticism comes from). That said, I acknowledge it's a nitpick, so I'll drop it.  |
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Post by scenario on Apr 21, 2023 14:47:46 GMT
If there were two weddings shown and both brides wore white would that cause a problem? "Do you xxx take thee..." They used the same dialog! Ships don't set sail on a Friday.... The AI stories were bad. I understand what you're saying, but I don't think your exemple is that relevant: A wedding scene is a cultural trope that is expected by most audiences in the Western world to go a certain way (and a good writer/team will find ways to make it feel different, especially if they compare two weddings). I also understand that Navies have their traditions, it's just the way they are trying to suddenly highlight, in a relatively coordinated way and through dialogue, that the "starship going to warp line" as something that had importance throughout Starfleet's history despite the fact that's it's actually a modern Trek trope (going back to the Kelvin-verse in my opinion). And it's not the "go" line that annoys me, it's the fact that they mention it in dialogue on multiple occasions. It feels clumsy and repetitive (going back to frequently mentioned themes that modern Trek writing seems to want to check boxes, which is probably where the AI-written criticism comes from). That said, I acknowledge it's a nitpick, so I'll drop it. Picard has many many flaws. There are a ton of things which some people like and some don't. I look at this as a family tradition. I can see where others disagree. One thing that feels off to me is it feels like they wrote backwards, plot last. They started with scenes and ideas they wanted and created a plot to fit them. They wanted the old crew on the old Enterprise to save the day before they started writing the plot. So they weakened the Borg without really explaining it so it became possible. None of it flowed right. It felt forced. Scenes strung together. |
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Post by SherlockHolmes on Apr 21, 2023 16:12:17 GMT
Kirk's was "Ahead Warp factor...(whatever)" or "Warp Speed!!!"...like he didn't have to have a punch line.
I also like to mention that PIKE was the FIRST to say "ENGAGE".
Kelvin Pike: Punch It!!!
Disco Pike: HIt it!!!!
Picard: ENGAGE!!!
Sisko: Set coure Maximum warp (They just did it,, he didn't have to say any executing command)
Kurn: EXECUTE!!!
Janeway: Engage
Archer: Lets Go! Or same as Sisko.
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Apr 21, 2023 21:43:04 GMT
Dear god, what a mess.
A big, beautiful, overstuffed mess...
"The Next Generation" does partially redeem the godawful 2nd season (which was total crap), but I thought the fan service was too much. Every shot, every other line, every prop, every music cue, etc was a callback to something else. It's less a TV show and more like an episode of "Where's Waldo? Star Trek Edition."
The final battle also does something that I've hated since the Star Wars prequels; there's just SO MUCH action happening all at once (thousands of ships, tons of whip-pans, hundreds of phaser beams, etc) that I just kind of emotionally check out. There's no more personal stakes, just a ton of pretty pixels. I don't feel engaged in it the way I felt when I saw the wreckage of the fleet at Wolf 359, or Picard's single tear in his eye when he's made Borg.
With the exception of Jack, none of the new characters (even Geordi's daughters) ever really register as full characters. I was glad to see Vadic & Shaw gone, at least; neither one of them were as interesting as people seemed to think they were. As for Q's return at the end, I just have to wonder... why? Wasn't S2 that character's big sendoff? What's the point? It robs his 'death' in season 2 of any meaning. Hell, does death even matter at all in the Star Trek universe? Even the Ent-D, which had a pretty conclusive demise in GEN, is cheaply brought back for a photo op session on the bridge. Those characters, posing at their old posts on the bridge, seemed to be the sole reason this whole season existed.
It seemed an overly convoluted excuse for a big Enterprise-D family reunion, which it literally was in the last 2-3 episodes.
Overall, it ended better than I expected, since the rest of this season largely sucked (save for episodes 1 & 4), but there's just way too much fan service and pew-pew FX. If you're only in it for the cheap feels of seeing the TNG cast reunited on the Ent-E bridge and 'fixing' their lack of presence in seasons 1 & 2? You're in luck.
I guess I'm in the minority, but I just didn't dig it as much as everyone else.
I'm looking more forward to Strange New Worlds season 2 at this point
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Post by RobinBland on Apr 22, 2023 13:00:21 GMT
Dear god, what a mess. A big, beautiful, overstuffed mess... "The Next Generation" does partially redeem the godawful 2nd season ( which was total crap), but I thought the fan service was too much. Every shot, every other line, every prop, every music cue, etc was a callback to something else. It's less a TV show and more like an episode of "Where's Waldo? Star Trek Edition."
The final battle also does something that I've hated since the Star Wars prequels; there's just SO MUCH action happening all at once ( thousands of ships, tons of whip-pans, hundreds of phaser beams, etc) that I just kind of emotionally check out. There's no more personal stakes, just a ton of pretty pixels. I don't feel engaged in it the way I felt when I saw the wreckage of the fleet at Wolf 359, or Picard's single tear in his eye when he's made Borg. With the exception of Jack, none of the new characters ( even Geordi's daughters) ever really register as full characters. I was glad to see Vadic & Shaw gone, at least; neither one of them were as interesting as people seemed to think they were. As for Q's return at the end, I just have to wonder... why? Wasn't S2 that character's big sendoff? What's the point? It robs his 'death' in season 2 of any meaning. Hell, does death even matter at all in the Star Trek universe? Even the Ent-D, which had a pretty conclusive demise in GEN, is cheaply brought back for a photo op session on the bridge. Those characters, posing at their old posts on the bridge, seemed to be the sole reason this whole season existed. It seemed an overly convoluted excuse for a big Enterprise-D family reunion, which it literally was in the last 2-3 episodes. Overall, it ended better than I expected, since the rest of this season largely sucked (save for episodes 1 & 4), but there's just way too much fan service and pew-pew FX. If you're only in it for the cheap feels of seeing the TNG cast reunited on the Ent-E bridge and 'fixing' their lack of presence in seasons 1 & 2? You're in luck. I guess I'm in the minority, but I just didn't dig it as much as everyone else. I'm looking more forward to Strange New Worlds season 2 at this point I don’t even know why the Changelings were there. They were a red herring to disguise the return of the Borg Queen, nothing more. Vadic was pointless. Everything else - the return of Q and of the Enterprise D, was this showrunner undoing legitimate dramatic progressions of the past because he didn’t like them. The first eight episodes of this season don’t really need to exist. The whole story could’ve probably been told in four, and given the character development we saw (killing off Ro?), you can’t tell me that time was spent on anything particularly worthwhile. To that - we’ve all done similar, on this board and its predecessor, many, many times. Be careful what you wish for, as the saying goes. I guess we shouldn’t complain. He gave us a happy ending. And the Enterprise G. It’s a shame it all feels so hollow. |
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Post by RobinBland on Apr 22, 2023 13:01:24 GMT
I understand what you're saying, but I don't think your exemple is that relevant: A wedding scene is a cultural trope that is expected by most audiences in the Western world to go a certain way (and a good writer/team will find ways to make it feel different, especially if they compare two weddings). I also understand that Navies have their traditions, it's just the way they are trying to suddenly highlight, in a relatively coordinated way and through dialogue, that the "starship going to warp line" as something that had importance throughout Starfleet's history despite the fact that's it's actually a modern Trek trope (going back to the Kelvin-verse in my opinion). And it's not the "go" line that annoys me, it's the fact that they mention it in dialogue on multiple occasions. It feels clumsy and repetitive (going back to frequently mentioned themes that modern Trek writing seems to want to check boxes, which is probably where the AI-written criticism comes from). That said, I acknowledge it's a nitpick, so I'll drop it. Picard has many many flaws. There are a ton of things which some people like and some don't. I look at this as a family tradition. I can see where others disagree. One thing that feels off to me is it feels like they wrote backwards, plot last. They started with scenes and ideas they wanted and created a plot to fit them. They wanted the old crew on the old Enterprise to save the day before they started writing the plot. So they weakened the Borg without really explaining it so it became possible. None of it flowed right. It felt forced. Scenes strung together.This, exactly. 👆 |
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Apr 22, 2023 14:51:57 GMT
Dear god, what a mess. A big, beautiful, overstuffed mess... "The Next Generation" does partially redeem the godawful 2nd season ( which was total crap), but I thought the fan service was too much. Every shot, every other line, every prop, every music cue, etc was a callback to something else. It's less a TV show and more like an episode of "Where's Waldo? Star Trek Edition."
The final battle also does something that I've hated since the Star Wars prequels; there's just SO MUCH action happening all at once ( thousands of ships, tons of whip-pans, hundreds of phaser beams, etc) that I just kind of emotionally check out. There's no more personal stakes, just a ton of pretty pixels. I don't feel engaged in it the way I felt when I saw the wreckage of the fleet at Wolf 359, or Picard's single tear in his eye when he's made Borg. With the exception of Jack, none of the new characters ( even Geordi's daughters) ever really register as full characters. I was glad to see Vadic & Shaw gone, at least; neither one of them were as interesting as people seemed to think they were. As for Q's return at the end, I just have to wonder... why? Wasn't S2 that character's big sendoff? What's the point? It robs his 'death' in season 2 of any meaning. Hell, does death even matter at all in the Star Trek universe? Even the Ent-D, which had a pretty conclusive demise in GEN, is cheaply brought back for a photo op session on the bridge. Those characters, posing at their old posts on the bridge, seemed to be the sole reason this whole season existed. It seemed an overly convoluted excuse for a big Enterprise-D family reunion, which it literally was in the last 2-3 episodes. Overall, it ended better than I expected, since the rest of this season largely sucked (save for episodes 1 & 4), but there's just way too much fan service and pew-pew FX. If you're only in it for the cheap feels of seeing the TNG cast reunited on the Ent-E bridge and 'fixing' their lack of presence in seasons 1 & 2? You're in luck. I guess I'm in the minority, but I just didn't dig it as much as everyone else. I'm looking more forward to Strange New Worlds season 2 at this point I don’t even know why the Changelings were there. They were a red herring to disguise the return of the Borg Queen, nothing more. Vadic was pointless. Everything else - the return of Q and of the Enterprise D, was this showrunner undoing legitimate dramatic progressions of the past because he didn’t like them. The first eight episodes of this season don’t really need to exist. The whole story could’ve probably been told in four, and given the character development we saw (killing off Ro?), you can’t tell me that time was spent on anything particularly worthwhile. To that - we’ve all done similar, on this board and its predecessor, many, many times. Be careful what you wish for, as the saying goes. I guess we shouldn’t complain. He gave us a happy ending. And the Enterprise G. It’s a shame it all feels so hollow. Last night I watched it again, on my HD digital projector, to give it a more 'theatrical' screening than the iPad I watched it on while exercising. It did help, a little bit--at least with the big splashy photo-op scenes on the Enterprise-D bridge, but yeah, it still feels like a big TNG cast Photo Op you'd pay $500 for at a convention. Empty calories...yes, tasty calories, but still empty. I might watch it again someday, if only to see the TNG crew back at their old posts (that much was delightful), but I agree that the Vadic subplot and the needlessly protracted reveal of "Jack's secret" (which took the least creative avenue) are nothing more than glitzy, well-produced space-fillers. I'm currently writing my own review of the episode, where I also list my grievances with the entire season. Should be posted in a day or two. |
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Post by Garak Nephew on Apr 22, 2023 15:15:18 GMT
"Picard" finale stuck to my head for the wrong reasons. I am enthusiastic most of the time when it comes to Star Trek, but this aberration really have me fuming...
Just one thing. Close to the end of the episode Seven says "If Earth falls everything falls." This is wrong. Behind it lurks the doctrine of American Exceptionalism and it is wrong on Trek because it contradicts the ideals of the Federation. Why, if the fight was so decisive for "everything", other species did not join the fight? How can we accept that other ships from founding members of the Federation were not present to the defend the Charter? Highly ethical Vulcans: absent! Pragmatical Tellarites: absent! Proud Andorians: absent! Not to mention all the others species members or not members of the Federation that should have concluded that the Borg presented a threat to everyone. Because it is like "only America can do it. Only America can save the day, again."
This is by design. Exceptionalism eating away the thoughts of the writers and creatives. We cannot, of course, fault "Picard" for this Earth centrism, it is probably there since maybe "First Contact", but we have not seen it expressed so grotesquely. For all the problems with Discovery, in terms of Federation conceptualization they kind of move away from this Earth centrism. We have to applaud once again the brilliance of DS9, it moved away from this Earth Central mess by focusing on Bajor and the promenade.
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Post by nombrecomun on Apr 22, 2023 17:18:10 GMT
"Picard" finale stuck to my head for the wrong reasons. I am enthusiastic most of the time when it comes to Star Trek, but this aberration really have me fuming...
Just one thing. Close to the end of the episode Seven says "If Earth falls everything falls." This is wrong. Behind it lurks the doctrine of American Exceptionalism and it is wrong on Trek because it contradicts the ideals of the Federation. Why, if the fight was so decisive for "everything", other species did not join the fight? How can we accept that other ships from founding members of the Federation were not present to the defend the Charter? Highly ethical Vulcans: absent! Pragmatical Tellarites: absent! Proud Andorians: absent! Not to mention all the others species members or not members of the Federation that should have concluded that the Borg presented a threat to everyone. Because it is like "only America can do it. Only America can save the day, again."
This is by design. Exceptionalism eating away the thoughts of the writers and creatives. We cannot, of course, fault "Picard" for this Earth centrism, it is probably there since maybe "First Contact", but we have not seen it expressed so grotesquely. For all the problems with Discovery, in terms of Federation conceptualization they kind of move away from this Earth centrism. We have to applaud once again the brilliance of DS9, it moved away from this Earth Central mess by focusing on Bajor and the promenade.
Absolutely agreed....aside from the fact that it's become such a worn out trope in Trek. Wanna show me something interesting, Star Trek? Have a villain finally blow up Earth. I'm MUCH more interested in that story. What happens to humans after? Do they find another Earth? Do they go through some colonial regression? I suppose Klingons, Romulans, etc... would say that's always been The Federation. And you're correct that this seems to be very much a TNG thing especially in the movies. I have to recall TWOK again in that it's the best Trek movie and no planets were at risk, certainly not Earth. The scale of that movie wasn't 'grand'. It was one individual's quest for revenge against one person happening somewhere in a remote location in space. |
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Apr 22, 2023 17:20:32 GMT
Picard has many many flaws. There are a ton of things which some people like and some don't. I look at this as a family tradition. I can see where others disagree. One thing that feels off to me is it feels like they wrote backwards, plot last. They started with scenes and ideas they wanted and created a plot to fit them. They wanted the old crew on the old Enterprise to save the day before they started writing the plot. So they weakened the Borg without really explaining it so it became possible. None of it flowed right. It felt forced. Scenes strung together.This, exactly. 👆 Does S2 even exist anymore? It really doesn't seem like it does, no matter what Matalas tries to say after the fact. The Borg are gone...or something. Q is not dead. I have no great love for it so I'm not hurt by it if it is, but I haven't seen someone so systematically undo someone else's work like that very often. |
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Apr 22, 2023 17:52:47 GMT
Picard has many many flaws. There are a ton of things which some people like and some don't. I look at this as a family tradition. I can see where others disagree. One thing that feels off to me is it feels like they wrote backwards, plot last. They started with scenes and ideas they wanted and created a plot to fit them. They wanted the old crew on the old Enterprise to save the day before they started writing the plot. So they weakened the Borg without really explaining it so it became possible. None of it flowed right. It felt forced. Scenes strung together.This, exactly. 👆 Yes, but, I don't think that's exactly the problem. They did have scenes that they wanted to play out and that's all fine. I write myself and I have the characters that I like to use and the worlds built in them and I think, "I think it would be cool if ________ did or said ________." That's what I go in with, and, I, too, want my heroes to save the day. The problem is when it comes to that, it has to make sense for the people that I've written as I've written them. Action hero TNG just doesn't work because that's not what TNG ever was. For me, that's why it feels wrong. Want a TNG send-off? Let them find The Preservers. Do a TNG story. That's why this feels wrong. TUC feels like a proper send-off for Kirk and company because Meyer understood who they are. He understood the kind of heroes they are. He wrote to their strengths and let the nostalgia shine through that. He didn't let them just wallow in how much they love each other while they strolled through a museum, "Hey, do you remember when....? The viewer does." And that's literally what "Bounty" was. These people wrote for themselves, not for the characters, so it didn't make sense and it didn't have to. |
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Post by Garak Nephew on Apr 22, 2023 18:18:34 GMT
Does S2 even exist anymore? It really doesn't seem like it does, no matter what Matalas tries to say after the fact. The Borg are gone...or something. Q is not dead. I have no great love for it so I'm not hurt by it if it is, but I haven't seen someone so systematically undo someone else's work like that very often. I don't see how it can. Matalas retcon himself. Didn't that season ended with the emergence of a sort of new collective, that was somehow more "ethical"? I read online that they call it the "Jurati collective". If the Borg are the focus again and again, what happen to the Jurati Collective? Why are they not part of the story line of season 3? Q is dead, and is not dead; Data is dead, but is not. That death is not definitive is kind of feature on Trek, but one get tire of this trope being used again and again.
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Post by nombrecomun on Apr 22, 2023 18:24:31 GMT
Stepping back a bit, I am curious as to why TPTB haven't done a Mirror Universe Trek series already considering how dystopian this universe is. Both Picard and Discovery show such a broken state of The Federation and humanity over all. I totally get that this presentation resonates with maybe mid-30 something folks who have grown up in such a world but for older fans who knew Trek for upwards of 3 decades this simply isn't Trek. It's more like The Expanse in Trek skin. Nothing wrong with that show. I like it but it's not Trek.
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Post by Garak Nephew on Apr 22, 2023 18:27:07 GMT
"Picard" finale stuck to my head for the wrong reasons. I am enthusiastic most of the time when it comes to Star Trek, but this aberration really have me fuming...
Just one thing. Close to the end of the episode Seven says "If Earth falls everything falls." This is wrong. Behind it lurks the doctrine of American Exceptionalism and it is wrong on Trek because it contradicts the ideals of the Federation. Why, if the fight was so decisive for "everything", other species did not join the fight? How can we accept that other ships from founding members of the Federation were not present to the defend the Charter? Highly ethical Vulcans: absent! Pragmatical Tellarites: absent! Proud Andorians: absent! Not to mention all the others species members or not members of the Federation that should have concluded that the Borg presented a threat to everyone. Because it is like "only America can do it. Only America can save the day, again."
This is by design. Exceptionalism eating away the thoughts of the writers and creatives. We cannot, of course, fault "Picard" for this Earth centrism, it is probably there since maybe "First Contact", but we have not seen it expressed so grotesquely. For all the problems with Discovery, in terms of Federation conceptualization they kind of move away from this Earth centrism. We have to applaud once again the brilliance of DS9, it moved away from this Earth Central mess by focusing on Bajor and the promenade.
Absolutely agreed....aside from the fact that it's become such a worn out trope in Trek. Wanna show me something interesting, Star Trek? Have a villain finally blow up Earth. I'm MUCH more interested in that story. What happens to humans after? Do they find another Earth? Do they go through some colonial regression? I suppose Klingons, Romulans, etc... would say that's always been The Federation. And you're correct that this seems to be very much a TNG thing especially in the movies. I have to recall TWOK again in that it's the best Trek movie and no planets were at risk, certainly not Earth. The scale of that movie wasn't 'grand'. It was one individual's quest for revenge against one person happening somewhere in a remote location in space. Yes... I have this theory cooking up in the back of my brain but is in a half-cook state so I can't defend it or articulate it very coherently: This trope of Earth centrism present on Trek writers is somehow related to Section 31. The idea of this unregulated entity existing to supposedly defend the Federation creates some serious mental gymnastic for writers... I don't know, I need to give it some thought. |
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Apr 22, 2023 18:30:10 GMT
Does S2 even exist anymore? It really doesn't seem like it does, no matter what Matalas tries to say after the fact. The Borg are gone...or something. Q is not dead. I have no great love for it so I'm not hurt by it if it is, but I haven't seen someone so systematically undo someone else's work like that very often. I don't see how it can. Matalas retcon himself. Didn't that season ended with the emergence of a sort of new collective, that was somehow more "ethical"? I read online that they call it the "Jurati collective". If the Borg are the focus again and again, what happen to the Jurati Collective? Why are they not part of the story line of season 3? Q is dead, and is not dead; Data is dead, but is not. That death is not definitive is kind of feature on Trek, but one get tire of this trope being used again and again.
And what a nice scene that might have actually been with a nice little bit of Allison Pill voice work with her Collective actually coming in to defend Earth. Heck, even if all that happened was a bunch of the ships showed up and they Tholian web a shield around Starbase One. And, yup, one of the defining characteristics of Trek has become that no one really has to deal with death. It's not a thing that can't be undone. Even Tasha's not just dead. |
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Post by scenario on Apr 22, 2023 18:41:38 GMT
The original Trek was a middle of the pack series on a major network. Ng was syndicated. The rest of the series were on small national networks. ST was always a niche product. A very big niche product but niche none the less.
Paramount wants it to be a tentpole series to carry the network. But the core ST fans aren't enough so they aim for the generic SF adventure fan. Some ST fans like it, many don't.
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Apr 22, 2023 19:40:58 GMT
Stepping back a bit, I am curious as to why TPTB haven't done a Mirror Universe Trek series already considering how dystopian this universe is. Both Picard and Discovery show such a broken state of The Federation and humanity over all. I totally get that this presentation resonates with maybe mid-30 something folks who have grown up in such a world but for older fans who knew Trek for upwards of 3 decades this simply isn't Trek. It's more like The Expanse in Trek skin. Nothing wrong with that show. I like it but it's not Trek. Hell, how about a series in our timeline where the Federation takes a similar turn. They're already dancing with it anyway. Call it a dark time. The Borg. Changelings. Whale probes. Scimitars, Dominion wars, and a billion other threats and the people just don't feel safe. They give up their rights and before you know it the Federation people knew is a lot closer to the MU than to what it used to be and there's a war, or at least a struggle to return to those values. As much as the MU can be fun to watch, the fact is that, as it's portrayed as far as Starfleet goes, I have no idea how it could function. There's room for brutal cutthroat and political maneuvering, but there has to be a fairly rigid set of rules. The navigator can't just, essentially randomly decide to kill the captain, only to have one guy flip in order to get a commission so that he can then kill his way into the chair. That's anarchy and that Starfleet would consume itself in a generation. But, yeah, take that turn with the Federation and you can have all the darkness you want and have stories about freedom and values and humanity. But this Star Trek is trying to skirt that and still pretend that it's all the same place as it ever was. |
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Post by Yorick on Apr 22, 2023 20:08:36 GMT
Stepping back a bit, I am curious as to why TPTB haven't done a Mirror Universe Trek series already considering how dystopian this universe is. Both Picard and Discovery show such a broken state of The Federation and humanity over all. I totally get that this presentation resonates with maybe mid-30 something folks who have grown up in such a world but for older fans who knew Trek for upwards of 3 decades this simply isn't Trek. It's more like The Expanse in Trek skin. Nothing wrong with that show. I like it but it's not Trek. You want to go to the Mirror Universe? But Mr Nom, … |
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Apr 23, 2023 4:46:57 GMT
Stepping back a bit, I am curious as to why TPTB haven't done a Mirror Universe Trek series already considering how dystopian this universe is. Both Picard and Discovery show such a broken state of The Federation and humanity over all. I totally get that this presentation resonates with maybe mid-30 something folks who have grown up in such a world but for older fans who knew Trek for upwards of 3 decades this simply isn't Trek. It's more like The Expanse in Trek skin. Nothing wrong with that show. I like it but it's not Trek. You want to go to the Mirror Universe? But Mr Nom, …  That's great! Well, I finally put together a deep-dive on the episode; having watched it again on a large screen in a darkened room, some aspects of it were more entertaining, yet many nagging flaws (of the episode and the season) remain: Star Trek Picard: "The Last Generation" review/ SPOILERS! |
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Post by RobinBland on Apr 23, 2023 13:21:48 GMT
"Picard" finale stuck to my head for the wrong reasons. I am enthusiastic most of the time when it comes to Star Trek, but this aberration really have me fuming...
Just one thing. Close to the end of the episode Seven says "If Earth falls everything falls." This is wrong. Behind it lurks the doctrine of American Exceptionalism and it is wrong on Trek because it contradicts the ideals of the Federation. Why, if the fight was so decisive for "everything", other species did not join the fight? How can we accept that other ships from founding members of the Federation were not present to the defend the Charter? Highly ethical Vulcans: absent! Pragmatical Tellarites: absent! Proud Andorians: absent! Not to mention all the others species members or not members of the Federation that should have concluded that the Borg presented a threat to everyone. Because it is like "only America can do it. Only America can save the day, again."
This is by design. Exceptionalism eating away the thoughts of the writers and creatives. We cannot, of course, fault "Picard" for this Earth centrism, it is probably there since maybe "First Contact", but we have not seen it expressed so grotesquely. For all the problems with Discovery, in terms of Federation conceptualization they kind of move away from this Earth centrism. We have to applaud once again the brilliance of DS9, it moved away from this Earth Central mess by focusing on Bajor and the promenade.
This is something that annoyed the hell out of me too. |
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Post by RobinBland on Apr 23, 2023 13:22:35 GMT
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Apr 23, 2023 16:54:29 GMT
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Post by RobinBland on Apr 23, 2023 21:12:26 GMT
I’d give real money if he’d shut up. One gets the feeling that IG post is one of those showrunner-to-showrunner “money in the PR bank” exercises. … I’d also really love to know what the original TNG writers think of this mess, off-the-record. We’ll never know, but Ron Moore (say)’s candid thoughts would surely be very entertaining. |
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Apr 23, 2023 21:44:27 GMT
I’d give real money if he’d shut up. One gets the feeling that IG post is one of those showrunner-to-showrunner “money in the PR bank” exercises. … I’d also really love to know what the original TNG writers think of this mess, off-the-record. We’ll never know, but Ron Moore (say)’s candid thoughts would surely be very entertaining. Oh, I can say that probably Moore isn't one to both barrels bad Trek choices by other writers. But, I bet Behr has a LOT of OTR thoughts. |
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Apr 23, 2023 23:17:54 GMT
I’d give real money if he’d shut up. One gets the feeling that IG post is one of those showrunner-to-showrunner “money in the PR bank” exercises. … I’d also really love to know what the original TNG writers think of this mess, off-the-record. We’ll never know, but Ron Moore (say)’s candid thoughts would surely be very entertaining. LOL! Love the McCoy line (well-used, too). My review was based more on watching it in a more immersive mode; I kind of let the sentiment just wash over me, and I enjoyed it a little more than I did while exercising with an iPad. It's NOT a good story, and it's nothing BUT derivative, but it is nice to see TNG cast getting a final hurrah that's a bit more conclusive than the open ends of the movies. It's more like watching a Star Trek parade than an episode. None of S3 PIC approaches the best of TNG, that's for sure, but with current Star Trek, my expectations are increasingly lowered as the franchise continues to (like the Borg Queen) feed on itself in order to survive. |
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Post by RobinBland on Apr 23, 2023 23:29:45 GMT
I’d give real money if he’d shut up. One gets the feeling that IG post is one of those showrunner-to-showrunner “money in the PR bank” exercises. … I’d also really love to know what the original TNG writers think of this mess, off-the-record. We’ll never know, but Ron Moore (say)’s candid thoughts would surely be very entertaining. Oh, I can say that probably Moore isn't one to both barrels bad Trek choices by other writers. But, I bet Behr has a LOT of OTR thoughts. Moore was the first one that rolled off the top of my head, but yeah, Behr! I bet hearing him mouth off about it all would be hugely entertaining. All those guys, really - in my fantasy pub where writers are honest (and drunk enough) to let rip their truthful opinions about their successors’ work. |
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Apr 23, 2023 23:36:30 GMT
Oh, I can say that probably Moore isn't one to both barrels bad Trek choices by other writers. But, I bet Behr has a LOT of OTR thoughts. Moore was the first one that rolled off the top of my head, but yeah, Behr! I bet hearing him mouth off about it all would be hugely entertaining. All those guys, really - in my fantasy pub where writers are honest (and drunk enough) to let rip their truthful opinions about their successors’ work. Behr and Moore are honest-to-goodness storytellers. The new shows are not even in their league. And yeah, given how critical Behr was of his OWN phenomenal work on DS9 ("What We Left Behind" doc), you can bet that with a few drinks in him, he'd rip a new one for every member of the PIC/DSC/LD writing staffs. |
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I am so sorry...