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Post by SherlockHolmes on Mar 9, 2023 22:21:12 GMT
But EVERYBODY'S emotional baggage is considered here. And I'll even give Captain Jackass credit for his anger because some people could never get over something like that. I'll even give him his FU, Picard rant. But not in public. That was just the wrong side of unhinged. Modern serialized Trek feels like a trip to a lazy therapists office. Something happened. How do you feel about that? Something happened. How does that make you feel? What do you think I should do? What do YOU think you should do? LOL!!! Nailed it. I'll even go farther. This is Star Trek: The Self Help Section. The other scene that had my eyes rolling out of my skull was at the end in which Picard all of a sudden realizes it was his son, sitting somewhere in the background, asking him a question at a bar many years ago. At no point in the ep are we lead to believe that Picard was thinking about that dinner all these years ago while the present day events were happening but he suddenly 'realizes' this? Also, how effin' annoying are those young Starfleet kids??!!!! Leave the old man to eat his dinner in peace!!! I would have threatened to demote them or throw them out of the Academy. Since F words are used by Picard now I would have said "F+++ OFF". or "SHUT UP WESLEYS" |
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Post by ashleytinger on Mar 9, 2023 23:08:14 GMT
I chalk up Shaw's over-sharing with the fact that Beverly pumped him full of drugs. Enough that he wasn't even thinking about getting command back from Riker.
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Mar 9, 2023 23:15:26 GMT
I chalk up Shaw's over-sharing with the fact that Beverly pumped him full of drugs. Enough that he wasn't even thinking about getting command back from Riker. Judging how he treated them in his quarters stone sober, I'm not sure the he was on painkillers made a lot of difference. |
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Post by ashleytinger on Mar 9, 2023 23:24:59 GMT
I chalk up Shaw's over-sharing with the fact that Beverly pumped him full of drugs. Enough that he wasn't even thinking about getting command back from Riker. Judging how he treated them in his quarters stone sober, I'm not sure the he was on painkillers made a lot of difference. On the other hand, that dude has serious Borg PTSD and the face of that PTSD commandeered his ship. |
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Mar 10, 2023 0:00:40 GMT
Judging how he treated them in his quarters stone sober, I'm not sure the he was on painkillers made a lot of difference. On the other hand, that dude has serious Borg PTSD and the face of that PTSD commandeered his ship. True, but that makes me wonder how and why he seemed to get away with getting no treatment for that. And, really, from a plot perspective, that speech, or something like that would have been perfect for the first dinner. He gives it and, "For that reason, former Borg so murderous they gave you a ----ing name, without signed and sealed orders from people with ACTUAL rank, this ship goes NOWHERE either of you want it to go. Got me?" And then, why not have that anger as further motivation to actually cede command. "If the two of you as so hellbent on command? ---- it, why not? Either you'll succeed and, if so, great. If not, then your last command will be a testament to absolute failure. Have fun." Then he can sit back and maybe work out his issues with the man, or at least within himself when he starts seeing how Picard and Riker work. But, no, and that's why this entire season so far just feels like a first draft script. If I can think of better ways to do what they want to do, the likes of Moore or Behr could blow the doors off the place. |
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Post by Garak Nephew on Mar 10, 2023 0:23:13 GMT
So, what's everyone's thought on Vadik's evil talking hand, and who it might be? (My Niner soul is talking now.):
Dukat. The enemies are the Pah-Wraiths. After "dying" Dukat became another Pah-Wraith. Why they have a beef with Picard? I leave that to the creative minds, if any, working at "Picard".
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Post by scenario on Mar 10, 2023 2:30:37 GMT
The first part was awful. The second part had good bits and pieces.
How many times have ships rode waves to get out of a gravity well in ST? We're all dead. We can't possibly use the same trick we've used a bunch of times before to save ourselves.
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Mar 10, 2023 3:39:06 GMT
This is more like it.
I've just started my own review of it, and will post it here tomorrow, with any luck (not sure exactly when). Yes, it's still an arrangement of the familiar, but it was well-assembled.
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Post by Garak Nephew on Mar 10, 2023 4:13:27 GMT
While from the standard, stereotypical Starfleet (military) perspective it might seem weak and unrealistic, I do understand Riker apathy and emptiness. Loosing a child can break the sturdiest of characters. If this was adequately spell out in the episode, that's a different matter.
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Post by RobinBland on Mar 10, 2023 4:31:17 GMT
I also quite enjoyed this episode of Star Trek: Therapy.
With reservations. How did Captain Asshole make captain when he’s that emotionally unbalanced? I know it was an extreme situation, but what responsible leader loses it like that in front of all the people ostensibly still in his care? Even so, I’m kind of liking this character - he’s refreshingly open for a Starfleet man.
Picard sounded like Picard at last, and Riker, Beverly and Seven were finally recognisable too. Nice to see Deanna there at the end.
Not groundbreaking, still flawed, but a more enjoyable episode overall. I hope the remaining six episodes are pacier and give us more actual story.
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Mar 10, 2023 4:42:38 GMT
I also quite enjoyed this episode of Star Trek: Therapy.
With reservations. How did Captain Asshole make captain when he’s that emotionally unbalanced? I know it was an extreme situation, but what responsible leader loses it like that in front of all the people ostensibly still in his care? Even so, I’m kind of liking this character - he’s refreshingly open for a Starfleet man.
Picard sounded like Picard at last, and Riker, Beverly and Seven were finally recognisable too. Nice to see Deanna there at the end.
Not groundbreaking, still flawed, but a more enjoyable episode overall. I hope the remaining six episodes are pacier and give us more actual story. I have to admit, Shaw is all kinds of broken and shouldn't be Captain of anything, but, overall, I don't hate the portrayal. He's at least interesting to watch in a 'WTF is this guy gonna say next' way. |
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Post by The Founder on Mar 10, 2023 5:00:29 GMT
I did half expect Laforge to be a red herring, that the real Laforge was with Seven and Shaw, that it was the fake one on the bridge... That would have been an insane twist. I also quite enjoyed this episode of Star Trek: Therapy.
With reservations. How did Captain Asshole make captain when he’s that emotionally unbalanced? I know it was an extreme situation, but what responsible leader loses it like that in front of all the people ostensibly still in his care? Even so, I’m kind of liking this character - he’s refreshingly open for a Starfleet man.
Picard sounded like Picard at last, and Riker, Beverly and Seven were finally recognisable too. Nice to see Deanna there at the end.
Not groundbreaking, still flawed, but a more enjoyable episode overall. I hope the remaining six episodes are pacier and give us more actual story. I have to admit, Shaw is all kinds of broken and shouldn't be Captain of anything, but, overall, I don't hate the portrayal. He's at least interesting to watch in a 'WTF is this guy gonna say next' way. I don't mind him as a captain, but considering his trauma with the Borg - it seems pretty awful that someone at Starfleet HQ thought to put Seven of Nine under his command. Someone must have really hated her there. Even if Shaw did not have any emotional breakdowns that Starfleet knew of - surely they would think to not put her with a survivor of Wolf 359? I get that it generates "drama" for the show, but in-universe it seems like an odd choice. Unless Shaw chose her specifically for the purposes of tormenting her but that's pretty irredeemable. |
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Mar 10, 2023 5:12:56 GMT
Maybe irredeemable, but not completely out of character for the man I've seen so far, either.
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Post by ashleytinger on Mar 10, 2023 12:06:26 GMT
We're also ONLY seeing Shaw when his PTSD is not only getting poked but with the face of his PTSD strolling around on his ship. From the Ready Room interview, it does seem like we'll see more of Shaw outside of reliving his trauma.
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Post by RobinBland on Mar 10, 2023 13:02:45 GMT
I didn’t watch the Ready Room interview yet. I’ll have to catch up with that.
Seems like Shaw is a hit, despite the cracks in the character’s personality.
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Post by RobinBland on Mar 10, 2023 13:04:59 GMT
I did half expect Laforge to be a red herring, that the real Laforge was with Seven and Shaw, that it was the fake one on the bridge... That would have been an insane twist. I have to admit, Shaw is all kinds of broken and shouldn't be Captain of anything, but, overall, I don't hate the portrayal. He's at least interesting to watch in a 'WTF is this guy gonna say next' way. I don't mind him as a captain, but considering his trauma with the Borg - it seems pretty awful that someone at Starfleet HQ thought to put Seven of Nine under his command. Someone must have really hated her there. Even if Shaw did not have any emotional breakdowns that Starfleet knew of - surely they would think to not put her with a survivor of Wolf 359? I get that it generates "drama" for the show, but in-universe it seems like an odd choice. Unless Shaw chose her specifically for the purposes of tormenting her but that's pretty irredeemable. Definitely a question we should have answered! The scene when she explains to Shaw how she knew LaForge was the Changeling was a satisfying moment. |
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Post by ashleytinger on Mar 10, 2023 14:26:24 GMT
That would have been an insane twist. I don't mind him as a captain, but considering his trauma with the Borg - it seems pretty awful that someone at Starfleet HQ thought to put Seven of Nine under his command. Someone must have really hated her there. Even if Shaw did not have any emotional breakdowns that Starfleet knew of - surely they would think to not put her with a survivor of Wolf 359? I get that it generates "drama" for the show, but in-universe it seems like an odd choice. Unless Shaw chose her specifically for the purposes of tormenting her but that's pretty irredeemable. Definitely a question we should have answered! The scene when she explains to Shaw how she knew LaForge was the Changeling was a satisfying moment. In the interview, Shaw picked her, but he's still being a jerk about it. Shaw picked her because she's everything he was at a younger age before the Borg. Impulsive, quick to action, etc. Basically, he wanted something in a first officer on the bridge that he isn't anymore because of Wolf 359. Shaw also sees great things in Seven, great leadership abilities, other great qualities. But he still calls her Hansen. |
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Post by RobinBland on Mar 10, 2023 16:42:14 GMT
Definitely a question we should have answered! The scene when she explains to Shaw how she knew LaForge was the Changeling was a satisfying moment. In the interview, Shaw picked her, but he's still being a jerk about it. Shaw picked her because she's everything he was at a younger age before the Borg. Impulsive, quick to action, etc. Basically, he wanted something in a first officer on the bridge that he isn't anymore because of Wolf 359. Shaw also sees great things in Seven, great leadership abilities, other great qualities. But he still calls her Hansen. I've worked for people like that. They recognize your talents and want to harness them, but it's bound up in petty jealousies and their own very subjective agendas too. They're supportive if that tallies with their immediate (usually selfish) objectives, but they're not more generally supportive; nor do they promote an atmosphere of connection and good communication. Ultimately, it's self-defeating because it doesn't foster an atmosphere of trust or genuine growth... but it also doesn't necessarily mean they're a bad person, or can't change. (Although some of the individuals I worked for were.) What was kinda cool about this episode is that it really brought back that old theme that ran through TNG, DS9 and VOY especially of "working in space." Of how understanding, trusting and relying on the talents and abilities of those around you results in good outcomes. (Sorry, I sound like a TED talk now. But I hope you know what I mean.) Maybe this is why Shaw is such an intriguing character. He's damaged, and something of an emotional loose cannon in that he wear his flaws very much on his sleeve and they often override any command considerations... but he's not intrinsically, fundamentally a bad person. He believes in the core philosophies of Starfleet. Lots of internal conflict resulting in his treatment of Seven. That's the kind of character drama I'm on board for. I hope we get more insight into Seven's take on all this. |
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Post by ashleytinger on Mar 10, 2023 16:55:37 GMT
In the interview, Shaw picked her, but he's still being a jerk about it. Shaw picked her because she's everything he was at a younger age before the Borg. Impulsive, quick to action, etc. Basically, he wanted something in a first officer on the bridge that he isn't anymore because of Wolf 359. Shaw also sees great things in Seven, great leadership abilities, other great qualities. But he still calls her Hansen. I've worked for people like that. They recognize your talents and want to harness them, but it's bound up in petty jealousies and their own very subjective agendas too. They're supportive if that tallies with their immediate (usually selfish) objectives, but they're not more generally supportive; nor do they promote an atmosphere of connection and good communication. Ultimately, it's self-defeating because it doesn't foster an atmosphere of trust or genuine growth... but it also doesn't necessarily mean they're a bad person, or can't change. (Although some of the individuals I worked for were.) What was kinda cool about this episode is that it really brought back that old theme that ran through TNG, DS9 and VOY especially of "working in space." Of how understanding, trusting and relying on the talents and abilities of those around you results in good outcomes. (Sorry, I sound like a TED talk now. But I hope you know what I mean.) Maybe this is why Shaw is such an intriguing character. He's damaged, and something of an emotional loose cannon in that he wear his flaws very much on his sleeve and they often override any command considerations... but he's not intrinsically, fundamentally a bad person. He believes in the core philosophies of Starfleet. Lots of internal conflict resulting in his treatment of Seven. That's the kind of character drama I'm on board for. I hope we get more insight into Seven's take on all this. And to be fair, he's well within his rights as Captain. Picard and Riker both show up, not following Starfleet protocol, not really delving into it. I mean, put Shaw in Picard's position back on the D. Picard has an Admiral and another Captain show up, they're on for a surprise inspection, decide to send the Enterprise to some out of the way place outside Federation space without any real orders, just because. Would Picard have really gone along with that? Hell no. He'd have been on the comms to the fleet wondering what was up. |
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Mar 10, 2023 18:17:49 GMT
Never too late for a leopard to change its spots? Aside from the too-dark cinematography (I literally couldn't see what was going on, even switching from my iPad to my TV set) and other minor issues, I REALLY enjoyed this one. It actually felt like there was a real story this time, and not just a needlessly protracted piece in a puzzle box. ****SPOILERS!!****
"No Win Scenario" gets its ship together. |
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Mar 10, 2023 23:43:29 GMT
In the interview, Shaw picked her, but he's still being a jerk about it. Shaw picked her because she's everything he was at a younger age before the Borg. Impulsive, quick to action, etc. Basically, he wanted something in a first officer on the bridge that he isn't anymore because of Wolf 359. Shaw also sees great things in Seven, great leadership abilities, other great qualities. But he still calls her Hansen. I've worked for people like that. They recognize your talents and want to harness them, but it's bound up in petty jealousies and their own very subjective agendas too. They're supportive if that tallies with their immediate (usually selfish) objectives, but they're not more generally supportive; nor do they promote an atmosphere of connection and good communication. Ultimately, it's self-defeating because it doesn't foster an atmosphere of trust or genuine growth... but it also doesn't necessarily mean they're a bad person, or can't change. (Although some of the individuals I worked for were.) What was kinda cool about this episode is that it really brought back that old theme that ran through TNG, DS9 and VOY especially of "working in space." Of how understanding, trusting and relying on the talents and abilities of those around you results in good outcomes. (Sorry, I sound like a TED talk now. But I hope you know what I mean.) Maybe this is why Shaw is such an intriguing character. He's damaged, and something of an emotional loose cannon in that he wear his flaws very much on his sleeve and they often override any command considerations... but he's not intrinsically, fundamentally a bad person. He believes in the core philosophies of Starfleet. Lots of internal conflict resulting in his treatment of Seven. That's the kind of character drama I'm on board for. I hope we get more insight into Seven's take on all this. I actually came to respect Shaw in this episode; something I honestly never expected to happen. I still think he's ill-suited to be a 'space ambassador' (one of the roles of a starship captain), but as a military officer? Yeah, I can see that. |
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Mar 10, 2023 23:45:59 GMT
Definitely a question we should have answered! The scene when she explains to Shaw how she knew LaForge was the Changeling was a satisfying moment. In the interview, Shaw picked her, but he's still being a jerk about it. Shaw picked her because she's everything he was at a younger age before the Borg. Impulsive, quick to action, etc. Basically, he wanted something in a first officer on the bridge that he isn't anymore because of Wolf 359. Shaw also sees great things in Seven, great leadership abilities, other great qualities. But he still calls her Hansen. That deadnaming of his really pisses me off; Seven has overcome a lot to own her identity now. Calling her "Hansen" is reminding her everything that was robbed from her, not for who she chooses to be. Hoping he drops the Hansen thing soon, especially after she, y'know, saved his life and all... |
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Post by RobinBland on Mar 10, 2023 23:55:06 GMT
Never too late for a leopard to change its spots? Aside from the too-dark cinematography (I literally couldn't see what was going on, even switching from my iPad to my TV set) and other minor issues, I REALLY enjoyed this one. It actually felt like there was a real story this time, and not just a needlessly protracted piece in a puzzle box. ****SPOILERS!!****
"No Win Scenario" gets its ship together.Excellent and very fair and in-depth review, Mr. Vie. Both generous and balanced. The stuff about Beverly Crusher is right on the nose. The deadnaming of Seven - it's a control issue, innit? He's still wrestling with the ghosts, his own survivor's guilt and blame which he's clearly attempting to land on both Picard and Seven, the latter of whom he has brought into his sphere of influence. (Or she was assigned to him - a lot of backstory we don't know yet.) All of which still begs the question how this guy is where he is. In any other military or semi-military organisation he'd have been pensioned off early, surely? Or perhaps he was just very good at disguising his psychic wounds, and his superiors in Starfleet thought he'd be good-to-go on an exploratory vessel. Because they never run into trouble, do they? Which also still doesn't change how intriguing a character he is. As Ashley observes, it's understandable why he behaves the way he does, his ship and his autonomy being co-opted by Picard and Riker. |
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Post by scenario on Mar 11, 2023 0:53:51 GMT
After Wolf359, Star Fleet was desperate for officers. They weren't picky. He probably ended up as a no nonsense by the book first officer. A lot of people like that sort of officers. He got the reputation as a guy who'll always follow the rules and he got all boring routine missions. He didn't stick out and did his job well until he ran into his personal nightmare.
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Mar 11, 2023 3:02:09 GMT
Never too late for a leopard to change its spots? Aside from the too-dark cinematography (I literally couldn't see what was going on, even switching from my iPad to my TV set) and other minor issues, I REALLY enjoyed this one. It actually felt like there was a real story this time, and not just a needlessly protracted piece in a puzzle box. ****SPOILERS!!****
"No Win Scenario" gets its ship together.Excellent and very fair and in-depth review, Mr. Vie. Both generous and balanced. The stuff about Beverly Crusher is right on the nose. The deadnaming of Seven - it's a control issue, innit? He's still wrestling with the ghosts, his own survivor's guilt and blame which he's clearly attempting to land on both Picard and Seven, the latter of whom he has brought into his sphere of influence. (Or she was assigned to him - a lot of backstory we don't know yet.) All of which still begs the question how this guy is where he is. In any other military or semi-military organisation he'd have been pensioned off early, surely? Or perhaps he was just very good at disguising his psychic wounds, and his superiors in Starfleet thought he'd be good-to-go on an exploratory vessel. Because they never run into trouble, do they? Which also still doesn't change how intriguing a character he is. As Ashley observes, it's understandable why he behaves the way he does, his ship and his autonomy being co-opted by Picard and Riker. Thanks, Robin. Very kind.  And yes, he deadnames Seven because he can. I still can't imagine who he f***ed to get command of an exploratory vessel, since he'd be an ambassador-at-large for the whole UFP, but yeah, sure, Starfleet. And Ashley is absolutely right in that he is a very intriguing character. Then again, so was Norman Bates, but I wouldn't put him in command of a starship.  |
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Post by nombrecomun on Mar 11, 2023 3:38:05 GMT
That deadnaming of his really pisses me off; Seven has overcome a lot to own her identity now. Calling her "Hansen" is reminding her everything that was robbed from her, not for who she chooses to be. Hoping he drops the Hansen thing soon, especially after she, y'know, saved his life and all... I'll probably be on my own with this one. I get the deadnaming aspect but I could argue that 'Seven' is the name given to her by her kidnappers. It could be viewed as Stockholm Syndrome by a factor of a 100 and that she chooses to be referred to as 'Seven' because whatever actual person she was was robbed early on, not to mention that her parents were murdered. Regardless, the whole set up is awful. Seven shouldn't be a commander of any Federation vessel and much less beaten down considering what we've seen of her in the previous seasons. Seven straight up from Voyager? Yeah. Maybe but not after several decades. A guy like Shaw shouldn't be a captain, much less paired up with a former(?) Borg. I like the character but he should have been in some other role. Either here or elsewhere I read a comparison of Sisko and Picard in that first DS9 ep. Sisko harboured the same feelings that Shaw had yet he understood how to be a professional about it. Anyway, I can keep going. |
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Post by RobinBland on Mar 11, 2023 4:07:38 GMT
That deadnaming of his really pisses me off; Seven has overcome a lot to own her identity now. Calling her "Hansen" is reminding her everything that was robbed from her, not for who she chooses to be. Hoping he drops the Hansen thing soon, especially after she, y'know, saved his life and all... I'll probably be on my own with this one. I get the deadnaming aspect but I could argue that 'Seven' is the name given to her by her kidnappers. It could be viewed as Stockholm Syndrome by a factor of a 100 and that she chooses to be referred to as 'Seven' because whatever actual person she was was robbed early on, not to mention that her parents were murdered. Regardless, the whole set up is awful. Seven shouldn't be a commander of any Federation vessel and much less beaten down considering what we've seen of her in the previous seasons. Seven straight up from Voyager? Yeah. Maybe but not after several decades. A guy like Shaw shouldn't be a captain, much less paired up with a former(?) Borg. I like the character but he should have been in some other role. Either here or elsewhere I read a comparison of Sisko and Picard in that first DS9 ep. Sisko harboured the same feelings that Shaw had yet he understood how to be a professional about it. Anyway, I can keep going. Yeah I agree, especially re: Sisko. Sisko didn’t disguise his problems with Picard, but it was far more recent history for him, and he lost his wife. Shaw’s been carrying this around for literally decades. Not healthy. Besides, Sisko came to terms with the past, albiet in very special circumstances and with unusual help in the shape of the wormhole aliens. Shaw hasn’t been as lucky. As for Seven, however anyone interprets her choices, ultimately, they’re her choices. |
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Mar 11, 2023 13:44:27 GMT
I'll probably be on my own with this one. I get the deadnaming aspect but I could argue that 'Seven' is the name given to her by her kidnappers. It could be viewed as Stockholm Syndrome by a factor of a 100 and that she chooses to be referred to as 'Seven' because whatever actual person she was was robbed early on, not to mention that her parents were murdered. Regardless, the whole set up is awful. Seven shouldn't be a commander of any Federation vessel and much less beaten down considering what we've seen of her in the previous seasons. Seven straight up from Voyager? Yeah. Maybe but not after several decades. A guy like Shaw shouldn't be a captain, much less paired up with a former(?) Borg. I like the character but he should have been in some other role. Either here or elsewhere I read a comparison of Sisko and Picard in that first DS9 ep. Sisko harboured the same feelings that Shaw had yet he understood how to be a professional about it. Anyway, I can keep going. Yeah I agree, especially re: Sisko. Sisko didn’t disguise his problems with Picard, but it was far more recent history for him, and he lost his wife. Shaw’s been carrying this around for literally decades. Not healthy. Besides, Sisko came to terms with the past, albiet in very special circumstances and with unusual help in the shape of the wormhole aliens. Shaw hasn’t been as lucky. As for Seven, however anyone interprets her choices, ultimately, they’re her choices. I think Seven's owning her scars is important for her, otherwise they would just build inside of her forever. Annika only reminds her of what she's lost; what was taken from her. "Seven" is what she struggled to defeat and overcome; it's a sign of victory...defeating the un-defeatable. |
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Post by nombrecomun on Mar 11, 2023 19:38:49 GMT
As for Seven, however anyone interprets her choices, ultimately, they’re her choices. I think Seven's owning her scars is important for her, otherwise they would just build inside of her forever. Annika only reminds her of what she's lost; what was taken from her. "Seven" is what she struggled to defeat and overcome; it's a sign of victory...defeating the un-defeatable. That totally makes sense. Has there been a scene in which she talks about it? |
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Mar 11, 2023 20:02:26 GMT
I think Seven's owning her scars is important for her, otherwise they would just build inside of her forever. Annika only reminds her of what she's lost; what was taken from her. "Seven" is what she struggled to defeat and overcome; it's a sign of victory...defeating the un-defeatable. That totally makes sense. Has there been a scene in which she talks about it? No. But it makes absolute sense. |
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I am so sorry...