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Post by scenario on Apr 15, 2023 15:22:43 GMT
Allow me to break down the finale for you: It's going to be a race to Earth, some dodging ships, some pew-pew, a slapdash solution, probably that includes some magic "Jack ALSO inherited some little key to resisting the Queen from Picard, so HE'S the best of BOTH of them because son." Get it? Do you GET IT? Because Picard and Crusher are gonna spend half a scene talking about JUST THAT ONE THING. Because you need to GET IT. The Borg die again, The fleet is, "Wha happah?" Whoever is left gushes praise on the crew, Picard and the gang gush praise on each other and, again, wax high school on what great brochachos they are, sign each other's yearbooks, Picard says, "Engage," and a fade to black. After Seven maybe gets to enjoy the center seat of the Titan for a minute because "WaIT foR ThE SPinOFf" Sorry about the spoilers. Yes! This is pretty much what is going to happen.
I would dare to add another prediction: Riker will die. Some sacrifice situation will be concocted... All those comments (about darkness, about the "void" that await all of us...) early in the season were paving the way for his exist. We'll see.
Perhaps today is a good day to die. |
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Apr 15, 2023 17:38:32 GMT
I think fan service isn't inherently bad. Its like a man buying his girlfriend flowers. But if he buys her flowers 3, 4, 5 times a day in place of communication and affection and all of the other things that make a relationship work it can be toxic. Every individual has a different line between sweet and toxic. I think to an extent Picard has replaced plot and character development with nostalgia. Pretty much this. And a lot can be spackled with a good speech, but I don't think this show is capable of it. |
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Apr 15, 2023 17:40:49 GMT
Allow me to break down the finale for you: It's going to be a race to Earth, some dodging ships, some pew-pew, a slapdash solution, probably that includes some magic "Jack ALSO inherited some little key to resisting the Queen from Picard, so HE'S the best of BOTH of them because son." Get it? Do you GET IT? Because Picard and Crusher are gonna spend half a scene talking about JUST THAT ONE THING. Because you need to GET IT. The Borg die again, The fleet is, "Wha happah?" Whoever is left gushes praise on the crew, Picard and the gang gush praise on each other and, again, wax high school on what great brochachos they are, sign each other's yearbooks, Picard says, "Engage," and a fade to black. After Seven maybe gets to enjoy the center seat of the Titan for a minute because "WaIT foR ThE SPinOFf" Sorry about the spoilers. Yes! This is pretty much what is going to happen. I would dare to add another prediction: Riker will die. Some sacrifice situation will be concocted... All those comments (about darkness, about the "void" that await all of us...) early in the season were paving the way for his exist. We'll see.
I'll go with that. I suspect you're probably right. And, what's more, I think Riker has mostly outshined Picard this year. Also, plucked from a Disqus thread: "Geordi sure is relaxed and composed on the bridge of the ENT-D considering both his daughters were assimilated 20 minutes earlier..." Fair point. |
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Post by The Founder on Apr 15, 2023 18:06:53 GMT
So... I'm going to take the really unpopular side here and disagree with everyone. Unpopular takes are good and important. Take it from me, I really like Lower Decks and that show is not going to get any love here once the new season start.
As for fan service. My position is that fan service is a real thing, but most of what we call fan service is there to waterdown the story, flashy things to distract to viewer or the fan, but some of them are used thoughtfully. Call it fan service, callbacks or nostalgia nuggets, these are devices that provide structure to a tale when this tale is build around a known universe. Fan service is a bug inside the writer's head, "like a splinter in your mind driving you insane" to quote Morpheus.
PIC season 3 is an example of how bad fan service could get when an IP drag its past like an anchor. The callbacks are just resting there as shinny things so that fans can go "ahh" "ohh". There are some good example. Take, for instance, the appearance of the name Benny Russell on the fantastic episode of SNW "The Elysian Kingdom". We may have really great disagreements about the meaning of Benny Russell -in general and in the episode- (as we did back in Omega Sector) but the fact remains that how the writers used it on SNW grew organically from the story and provided context for the ongoing story of the episode AND Russell itself. It wasn't an ornamental thing.
In my opinion, most of the time fan service do a disservice to the story, it set it's frame on a stagnant, stale notion of a fan ("meh, they just want the same, lets give it to them"), and view them like puppets, like a straw thing going on a Conventions loop. If a writer or creative really care about a character, don't throw them back to the usual tropes. Use, instead, the SAME character but tweak it a little bit. I was in the minority in my appreciation of how Ro was brought back. I was able to SEE her, it was to me the real Ro, but the scars were visible. It was a good use of a callback. The only good one of this season.
Thank you for not hating my take. lol  But I guess from what I've seen in people's answers are that fan service is highly subjective. The Ro example you gave is a perfect one. You appreciated it and enjoyed it and don't dismiss it as "fan service" but I've seen a lot of people (not on this forum) say that her apperance was superfluous, pointless, and just nostalgia bate. I'll be really honest and blunt - if I was a writer, I'd ignore what Star Trek (or any fandom) fans say regarding that. I'd just do my own thing because it's obvious that fan service is a spectrum that people decide upon willy nilly. I guess I was trying to find an example of fan service (in any show/film) that completely destroyed the show/film. Not just put people off. But literally destroyed the entirety of the show/film. I honestly can't think of any. Regarding the episode - I honestly enjoyed it. I was a little "Oh great ... the Borg again." but I enjoyed the rest. I do hope that this is the literal end of the Borg Collective. Please just let them finally die. This franchise as a whole beat them into the ground. Just be done with them. Q said there were a great many things of horror that humanity was not ready for. He didn't say it was ONLY the Borg. |
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Post by scenario on Apr 15, 2023 19:51:44 GMT
Fan service is usually brought up when a show is brought back after a long time. Its generally a movie.
I liked Ro but she was a named expendable crew member. It was more of a waste. Looking forward to finding out what happened to a charter for 30 years. One episode, two or three scenes and kill her off.
This place welcomes dissenting opinions. Personally I get annoyed arguing over facts which happens sometimes.
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Apr 15, 2023 19:59:26 GMT
Article quote: As Michael Okuda said on Twitter, "As others have noted before, it partly depends on how many subscribers stream Picard, and how many times they watch it." Which makes one wonder why spend so much money on a show like this and then just rely on a cookie-cutter story template. Is it true that the best and only plan is play it super-safe every time? Truth be told, "Picard" is not something I will go back and rewatch. "Stargate" is something I go back and rewatch. And even then, I would still hate to see the old cast dragged out back in front of the cameras for spin-off series. Instead, I'd like to see some new "Stargate." Maybe that's why the next "Star Trek" spin-off is set at the Academy, because its target audience could be considered an easier target. The younger folk are so much easier to please than us crumblies who still bang our fist on the table and insist on quality. Heck, we're a dying breed. Anyone looking for cerebral sci-fi should probably skip "Star Trek" these days. *** True and very, very sad. More here: www.yahoo.com/news/star-trek-picard-season-3-173001034.html |
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Post by scenario on Apr 15, 2023 20:15:51 GMT
They threw us a bone with SNW and to some extent Prodigy.
They're aiming at the general SF/super hero audience rather than the nerds.
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Apr 16, 2023 1:02:21 GMT
I think fan service isn't inherently bad. It's like a man buying his girlfriend flowers. But if he buys her flowers 3, 4, 5 times a day in place of communication and affection and all of the other things that make a relationship work it can be toxic. Every individual has a different line between sweet and toxic. I think to an extent Picard has replaced plot and character development with nostalgia. ^ This. 100% this. The flowers are usually there because they don't offer much else. PIC's 2nd and 3rd seasons fit into the toxic variety of fan service; where the fan service exists only to plug in those gaping holes where a good story could've gone. |
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Apr 16, 2023 1:08:06 GMT
Article quote: As Michael Okuda said on Twitter, "As others have noted before, it partly depends on how many subscribers stream Picard, and how many times they watch it." Which makes one wonder why spend so much money on a show like this and then just rely on a cookie-cutter story template. Is it true that the best and only plan is play it super-safe every time? Truth be told, "Picard" is not something I will go back and rewatch. "Stargate" is something I go back and rewatch. And even then, I would still hate to see the old cast dragged out back in front of the cameras for spin-off series. Instead, I'd like to see some new "Stargate." Maybe that's why the next "Star Trek" spin-off is set at the Academy, because its target audience could be considered an easier target. The younger folk are so much easier to please than us crumblies who still bang our fist on the table and insist on quality. Heck, we're a dying breed. Anyone looking for cerebral sci-fi should probably skip "Star Trek" these days. *** True and very, very sad. More here: www.yahoo.com/news/star-trek-picard-season-3-173001034.htmlGeordi seemingly pulling the Ent-D out of his ass in the final moments is exactly what the article is talking about; it's awash in nostalgia, and nothing more. Wish PIC had followed the dazzling example of NBC's reboot/sequel of "Quantum Leap"; there's a very light seasoning of nostalgia sprinkled into it, but it's more reliant on its colorful ensemble cast (not just the Sam & Al duo) and it reworks the old series premise in a fresh new way. Sadly, Terry Matalas' Star Trek seems to have no restraint--or shame--left. It just ladles out the fan service like so much daily special at a greasy spoon cafe. |
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Apr 16, 2023 3:52:15 GMT
Article quote: As Michael Okuda said on Twitter, "As others have noted before, it partly depends on how many subscribers stream Picard, and how many times they watch it." Which makes one wonder why spend so much money on a show like this and then just rely on a cookie-cutter story template. Is it true that the best and only plan is play it super-safe every time? Truth be told, "Picard" is not something I will go back and rewatch. "Stargate" is something I go back and rewatch. And even then, I would still hate to see the old cast dragged out back in front of the cameras for spin-off series. Instead, I'd like to see some new "Stargate." Maybe that's why the next "Star Trek" spin-off is set at the Academy, because its target audience could be considered an easier target. The younger folk are so much easier to please than us crumblies who still bang our fist on the table and insist on quality. Heck, we're a dying breed. Anyone looking for cerebral sci-fi should probably skip "Star Trek" these days. *** True and very, very sad. More here: www.yahoo.com/news/star-trek-picard-season-3-173001034.htmlGeordi seemingly pulling the Ent-D out of his ass in the final moments is exactly what the article is talking about; it's awash in nostalgia, and nothing more. Wish PIC had followed the dazzling example of NBC's reboot/sequel of "Quantum Leap"; there's a very light seasoning of nostalgia sprinkled into it, but it's more reliant on its colorful ensemble cast (not just the Sam & Al duo) and it reworks the old series premise in a fresh new way. Sadly, Terry Matalas' Star Trek seems to have no restraint--or shame--left. It just ladles out the fan service like so much daily special at a greasy spoon cafe. I'd even give him pulling the D out of his ass if he had dropped a hint here and there over 8 episodes and if the series hadn't just been awash in referencing the trappings of 30 years ago before then. There's just no surprise at all in the reveal that you knew was coming by episode two. |
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Post by SherlockHolmes on Apr 16, 2023 6:06:45 GMT
In the Anime community, "Fanservice" is usually a panty shot. It has no reason to exist. It does nothing for the story, its just there to get your attention because the story sucks. Worse, if the story is good, and smacks you right out of it. Picard does this alot. And they really like to draw attention to it. Its one thing to have callbacks to things, but the randomness or cheesy delivery makes me cringe. I been so mad, because the last 4 minutes of 'Vox' was the right kind of Fanservice, but the cost was too great. Killing off Romulus, Icheb, Hugh, Q, Ro, Shelby was not worth it though. I've wanted Data to come back for 20 years. Now that I have that, it feels empty, because I feel like the entire Star Trek Universe has been f'ked up. Its a more sad ending for a generation than Nemesis.
also Troi mentions Picard& Beverly's kid and Geordi's kids, as 'our family too' but leaves out Wesley, Alexander, and her own damned kid....and umm...who's going to tell Data that he has a daughter?
The problem is, the story and characters are so un-Star Trek like that they have to use 'Fanservice' to remind us that it's Star Trek. Because everything is so G'D'MED Dystopian. And literally Dark. Oh and don't get used to the D lighting. Its back to dark in the Finale clip.
Edit: Sword romulan dude...might have been killed off screen. I seem to remember him serving on the Excelsior in season 2. I think?
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Post by RobinBland on Apr 16, 2023 13:14:15 GMT
Unpopular takes are good and important. Take it from me, I really like Lower Decks and that show is not going to get any love here once the new season start.
As for fan service. My position is that fan service is a real thing, but most of what we call fan service is there to waterdown the story, flashy things to distract to viewer or the fan, but some of them are used thoughtfully. Call it fan service, callbacks or nostalgia nuggets, these are devices that provide structure to a tale when this tale is build around a known universe. Fan service is a bug inside the writer's head, "like a splinter in your mind driving you insane" to quote Morpheus.
PIC season 3 is an example of how bad fan service could get when an IP drag its past like an anchor. The callbacks are just resting there as shinny things so that fans can go "ahh" "ohh". There are some good example. Take, for instance, the appearance of the name Benny Russell on the fantastic episode of SNW "The Elysian Kingdom". We may have really great disagreements about the meaning of Benny Russell -in general and in the episode- (as we did back in Omega Sector) but the fact remains that how the writers used it on SNW grew organically from the story and provided context for the ongoing story of the episode AND Russell itself. It wasn't an ornamental thing.
In my opinion, most of the time fan service do a disservice to the story, it set it's frame on a stagnant, stale notion of a fan ("meh, they just want the same, lets give it to them"), and view them like puppets, like a straw thing going on a Conventions loop. If a writer or creative really care about a character, don't throw them back to the usual tropes. Use, instead, the SAME character but tweak it a little bit. I was in the minority in my appreciation of how Ro was brought back. I was able to SEE her, it was to me the real Ro, but the scars were visible. It was a good use of a callback. The only good one of this season.
Thank you for not hating my take. lol But I guess from what I've seen in people's answers are that fan service is highly subjective. The Ro example you gave is a perfect one. You appreciated it and enjoyed it and don't dismiss it as "fan service" but I've seen a lot of people (not on this forum) say that her apperance was superfluous, pointless, and just nostalgia bate. I'll be really honest and blunt - if I was a writer, I'd ignore what Star Trek (or any fandom) fans say regarding that. I'd just do my own thing because it's obvious that fan service is a spectrum that people decide upon willy nilly.
I guess I was trying to find an example of fan service (in any show/film) that completely destroyed the show/film. Not just put people off. But literally destroyed the entirety of the show/film. I honestly can't think of any.Regarding the episode - I honestly enjoyed it. I was a little "Oh great ... the Borg again." but I enjoyed the rest. I do hope that this is the literal end of the Borg Collective. Please just let them finally die. This franchise as a whole beat them into the ground. Just be done with them. Q said there were a great many things of horror that humanity was not ready for. He didn't say it was ONLY the Borg. That’s exactly the point - using nostalgic elements to build your story is reliable, because you can be reasonably sure 90% of people will respond positively. It’s easy and safe. It’s a remix of the old masquerading as something new but with many familiar tropes to make the audience feel comfortable. This whole season has been a bottle show on darkly-lit starships and almost every element is a reuse and rehash of things we’ve seen so many times before, culminating in the reuse of the Borg… again. Of course, measuring “good writing” is difficult in an industry where ratings and (both critical and fan) consensus are the metrics by which any show is considered a success. By most accounts, Picard S3 is a success. … I should say that I’m always happy and curious to hear other well-reasoned takes, and yours are always passionate and well reasoned, Founder. That’s the purpose of our conversations, ultimately… to see things from different points of view so we can all get more out of the things we experience and love. On this occasion, I’ve really tried, but for me at least, the last couple of seasons of Picard have pretty much failed on all fronts. Except for the visual nostalgia. It’s nice, but for me, pretty pictures and cinematic callbacks do not make a good show. That’s sleight-of-hand and ultimately pretty empty. Overall it’s not a story worthy of these characters - certainly not of being the final one. I do like the new players - Ed Speleers and Ashlei Sharpe Chestnut especially are terrific young actors. I’m exasperated by the wasted potential, even when I catch the all-too occasional glimpses of greater daring and invention in the storytelling. You’ll find people who are still irked by Kirk’s final appearance in Generations. I guess I’m that guy now. |
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Post by RobinBland on Apr 16, 2023 13:22:18 GMT
Geordi seemingly pulling the Ent-D out of his ass in the final moments is exactly what the article is talking about; it's awash in nostalgia, and nothing more. Wish PIC had followed the dazzling example of NBC's reboot/sequel of "Quantum Leap"; there's a very light seasoning of nostalgia sprinkled into it, but it's more reliant on its colorful ensemble cast (not just the Sam & Al duo) and it reworks the old series premise in a fresh new way. Sadly, Terry Matalas' Star Trek seems to have no restraint--or shame--left. It just ladles out the fan service like so much daily special at a greasy spoon cafe. I'd even give him pulling the D out of his ass if he had dropped a hint here and there over 8 episodes and if the series hadn't just been awash in referencing the trappings of 30 years ago before then. There's just no surprise at all in the reveal that you knew was coming by episode two. That’s what I mean when I talk about weird structural decisions. If you were to plot this season out visually on a big whiteboard, it would have a really strange shape. The placement of a lot of the big reveals is questionable. All that time wasted on Vadic. The drawn-out mystery of Jack’s visions. The bait-and-switch of the Changelings and the Borg as big bads. Hell, bring in the Ent-D and Data and Geordi earlier. Give Seven something real to do and not just be a target for her bully of a captain. I get the sense that, in some cases, they figured out the structure based on what (and who) they could afford in various episodes. Although that still doesn’t explain the terrible dialogue. |
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Post by SherlockHolmes on Apr 16, 2023 14:42:22 GMT
NEXT EPISODE SPOILER-NOT JOKING!
If anyone has seen the clip to episode 10, you'll notice that Spacedock's defenses are all that stand between the fleet and Earth after the defense platforms have been destroyed. Assuming Spacedock is armed to the teeth like DS9, and can hold its own....the fleet could just....go around. Just go around... like...to the....other side of the planet....i mean hell. Bad writing. If I were a writer, I'd written that the platforms were like the ones from DS9 in the Chin'toka system. They don't have their own power generator on board, all their power was being emitted from a station on an Asteroid with invincible shields.I would have it written that Spacedock has a similar purpose. They'd have to destroy the Spacedock to get past the defenses.
Also, i mentioned before that the Enterprise-D has dark lighting again. It actually looks like the bridge is not illuminated by its own lights, looks like as if the screen is a window during a sunset. I hate the look
The cinematographer SUCKS. But hey its ok, non of this matters because Patrick gives us more Fanservice of "ENGAGE". Its like retired Stone Cold showing up saying "Give me a hell yeah" and WWE fans going nuts. He gives a speech, and doesn't wrestle. But the fans still going nuts because its Fanservice.
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Apr 16, 2023 16:20:37 GMT
Aren't we just repeating the same point over and over again?
Also, why isn't THIS what we see?
This is pretty properly lit.
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Apr 16, 2023 22:26:50 GMT
Geordi seemingly pulling the Ent-D out of his ass in the final moments is exactly what the article is talking about; it's awash in nostalgia, and nothing more. Wish PIC had followed the dazzling example of NBC's reboot/sequel of "Quantum Leap"; there's a very light seasoning of nostalgia sprinkled into it, but it's more reliant on its colorful ensemble cast (not just the Sam & Al duo) and it reworks the old series premise in a fresh new way. Sadly, Terry Matalas' Star Trek seems to have no restraint--or shame--left. It just ladles out the fan service like so much daily special at a greasy spoon cafe. I'd even give him pulling the D out of his ass if he had dropped a hint here and there over 8 episodes and if the series hadn't just been awash in referencing the trappings of 30 years ago before then. There's just no surprise at all in the reveal that you knew was coming by episode two. There was NO REASON to rebuild the D; if it's a museum, they could've just as easily had the saucer section floating in dock as an exhibit. It makes NO SENSE to restore the ship's warp core, let alone its torpedoes. No museum ship carries live weaponry. |
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Post by scenario on Apr 16, 2023 22:34:09 GMT
I'd even give him pulling the D out of his as hs if he had dropped a hint here and there over 8 episodes and if the series hadn't just been awash in referencing the trappings of 30 years ago before then. There's just no surprise at all in the reveal that you knew was coming by episode two. There was NO REASON to rebuild the D; if it's a museum, they could've just as easily had the saucer section floating in dock as an exhibit. It makes NO SENSE to restore the ship's warp core, let alone its torpedoes. No museum ship carries live weaponry.The only way that makes any sense would be they planned to have the ship at founders day. But it still wouldn't have weapons beyond a token. Maybe they ram the queens ship at warp speed and everyone dies. The end. |
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Apr 17, 2023 0:11:09 GMT
I'd even give him pulling the D out of his ass if he had dropped a hint here and there over 8 episodes and if the series hadn't just been awash in referencing the trappings of 30 years ago before then. There's just no surprise at all in the reveal that you knew was coming by episode two. There was NO REASON to rebuild the D; if it's a museum, they could've just as easily had the saucer section floating in dock as an exhibit. It makes NO SENSE to restore the ship's warp core, let alone its torpedoes. No museum ship carries live weaponry.Technically, it didn't. Until the drones loaded them. In the exact same way that the National Air and Space Museum has Sidewinder missiles in the basement just in case some military officer comes in and wants to run his own mission.  Or, you know, maybe Geordi has his own criminal enterprise going on. |
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Post by scenario on Apr 17, 2023 2:38:38 GMT
I guess the Enterprise was part of the reserve fleet. It was a ship the fleet could pull out of mothballs in an emergency.
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Post by SherlockHolmes on Apr 17, 2023 2:52:53 GMT
This is pretty properly lit. Except those lights above the side panels. They should be blue.  look right above the guy's head at tactical. Edit: Also the reason that's not what we see is these cinematographers are fking obsessed with color gradient. Its destroying everything filmed today. |
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Apr 17, 2023 3:38:16 GMT
I guess the Enterprise was part of the reserve fleet. It was a ship the fleet could pull out of mothballs in an emergency. Maybe, but he sure made it sound like it was some sort of hobby of his to get it put back together. |
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Apr 17, 2023 3:39:46 GMT
There was NO REASON to rebuild the D; if it's a museum, they could've just as easily had the saucer section floating in dock as an exhibit. It makes NO SENSE to restore the ship's warp core, let alone its torpedoes. No museum ship carries live weaponry.Technically, it didn't. Until the drones loaded them. In the exact same way that the National Air and Space Museum has Sidewinder missiles in the basement just in case some military officer comes in and wants to run his own mission. Or, you know, maybe Geordi has his own criminal enterprise going on. Oh, that's right... I must've zoned out at that part.  |
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Post by scenario on Apr 17, 2023 3:52:03 GMT
I guess the Enterprise was part of the reserve fleet. It was a ship the fleet could pull out of mothballs in an emergency. Maybe, but he sure made it sound like it was some sort of hobby of his to get it put back together. Maybe a low priority thing he did as a labor of love. |
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Post by ashleytinger on Apr 17, 2023 11:05:48 GMT
I mean, the dude is an Engineer
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Post by SherlockHolmes on Apr 17, 2023 12:45:17 GMT
if robots and drones are doing the heavy lifting and building, i could see it as a side project.
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Apr 17, 2023 13:32:23 GMT
if robots and drones are doing the heavy lifting and building, i could see it as a side project. Yet no one else in Starfleet knew of its existence? Seems to me a full-on restoration of the former Federation flagship would've gotten some attention. I guess it's better to keep it hidden, even though the fleet museum is (presumably?) open to all Federation members. The Ent-A was just another refit Constitution-class starship that was renamed "Enterprise", IIRC, so its 'big reveal' at the end of STIV made some sense (esp. since Spacedock at Earth was a military facility). But Geordi's magic deus ex machina reveal of the Ent-D was terribly lazy scripting at best. |
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Post by SherlockHolmes on Apr 17, 2023 16:06:39 GMT
if robots and drones are doing the heavy lifting and building, i could see it as a side project. Yet no one else in Starfleet knew of its existence? Seems to me a full-on restoration of the former Federation flagship would've gotten some attention. I guess it's better to keep it hidden, even though the fleet museum is (presumably?) open to all Federation members. The Ent-A was just another refit Constitution-class starship that was renamed "Enterprise", IIRC, so its 'big reveal' at the end of STIV made some sense (esp. since Spacedock at Earth was a military facility). But Geordi's magic deus ex machina reveal of the Ent-D was terribly lazy scripting at best. A plaque in the background at Starfleet HQ in season one mentions that the saucer had been recovered and was in a fleet museum. Starfleet knew about it, they just didn't care because it was still "Totaled" and being worked on. You can look at the hull closely and still see the scarring of the hull from the crash. In the clip of next weeks episode that Prometheus posted, you can see the scorching from burning through the atmosphere on top of the saucer. One thing also is, the maximum warp of a Galaxy class is soooooooo much slower than even Starfleet vessels of the 2370s. Maximum safe velocity was Warp 9.6 where the Intrepid class had a maximum CRUISE velocity of warp 9.975 (Which is much much faster than 9.6, you know, because warp curve) and supposedly though not mentioned on screen, the Enterprise E's maximum warp was Warp 9.995. Also...where did the museum get Torpedoes? Are they Photon? Are they Quantum? Transphasic? Tri-cobalt? ...........Chronoton?  Also As Worf said, the E had better weapon systems. Type XVI phasers over Type XII. |
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Post by Tupperfan on Apr 20, 2023 0:56:48 GMT
So... I'm going to take the really unpopular side here and disagree with everyone. Number 1: Most of the people on TrekBBS are not fanboys that love everything PIC. I'm not talking about the poll. I'm talking about the actual posters on there. I make even the tiniest comment about the show and get crapped on by multiple posters because I love "nostalgia" or whatever garbage. The piling on from that forum is not from people that love the nostalgia but from the people that are essentially bitter we didn't get more of the anti-TNG garbage that was Seasons 1 and 2 where we got the adventures of Patrick Stewart wanting to recreate Professor Xavier in "Logan" but with a Captain Picard skin. I'm genuinely surprised that the posters on here think that the forum is filled to the brim with people that love everything about PIC. A lot of the posters (not all) are annoyingly combative and argumentative for the slightest thing on there. The mods must be asleep. Well, unpopular is in the eye of the beholder... and clearly varies from one Message Boards to the other. I'm saying that totally understanding where you're coming from. But being the one who made comments regarding TrekBBS seeming a bit fanatic in their fandom (I guess it does have to come hand in hand at times), I'd like to explain where I'm coming from (I didn't read the other's responses yet). First of all, if my comment was based on a recent glance on a poll and little else (I just don't have time to read 80+ pages of an episode's comments thread), it was also based on a bunch of lurking sessions, where it seems there is a decent split between "Love all Trek", "Love New Trek" and "Love Old Trek", which two of these subgroups having a go at whomever they see as a hater, or at the very least as "not getting it". So yeah, I don't disagree with your analysis of the TrekBBS's fan fauna. It does feel vitriolic and not open to true discussion. However I believe this little place Prom built for us here, despite the most negative stance coming from a few of us, remains more open to discussions and accepting of dissent, other views and diversity in general. Which leads me to: Number 2: Ok ... so apparently this is a "spicy take" but... There is no such thing as fan service. There, I said it. It's a made up, nonsensical term that is so nebulous and all encompassing that it is essentially whatever you want it to be. Why are these beloved episodes/moments? Scotty made an appearance from being stuck in a transporter beam. The VOY finding the only Klingons in the Delta Quadrant? The Klingon Augment arc in ENT? Q thinking Riker was going to get command of Voyager? Captain Kirk fighting alongside Captain Picard? Dax fawning over Spock? Did you think those were fan service or were you ok with it? If you were, why? Fan service just means what you are prepared to accept in terms of cross overs, references, call backs, cameos, and direct guest spots. You might be willing to tolerate Spock appearing on TNG, but you aren't willing to tolerate Spock is Burnham's brother. Why? What arbitrary line was crossed for you? You might be willing to stomach seeing the Defiant in a brief cameo in "First Contact" but you would have balked at the ENT-E being in DS9 during the Dominion War. Why? What arbitrary line was crossed for you? Is this just Star Trek or do you apply these rigid standards in every show or film? Is it fan service that the Fellow of the Ring just happened to find the Mines of Moria connected to the Dwarf from the Hobbit novel? These shows are made for fans. Of course we're meant to enjoy and celebrate the cross overs. It's a connected universe. It makes no sense to want a Star Trek show that has little to no connections with its previous iterations. I don't even understand the mindset behind that. Sorry to sound gatekeepy but what is the point of liking these universes if you balk at any connections between the shows? This is the final season of PIC and likely the last time we'll ever see the TNG cast together. Why is it so bad that instead of that garbage 23rd century throwback ship (Titan), we send them on one final mission on the ENT-D. For years, fans complained that Nemesis was a terrible send off for the cast. We get another go at it and fans are still mad because... "fan service"? Fan service doesn't exist, people. It's your subjective taste. It's the line you've built for yourself that you use as a litmus of what you'll accept. You'll tolerate McCoy seeing the ENT-D off in the pilot, but damnit you don't want Ro Laren to pop up in one episode? Huh? I'm sorry. It's just so weird to me. I'm not attacking anyone or saying you're wrong to dislike PIC. Hell, I hated S1 and S2. Minus a few good moments, they were awful. I get it. It's a disappointment but the parts that I hated were not seeing Hugh again or seeing Seven again or mentioning Gul Dukat or mentioning Odo or whatever. What I hated was the terrible plot and the lack of true follow up of the 24th century. For the people that hate "fan service" - do you essentially want bottle shows where none of the events of the previous show are ever mentioned in any way? If you're going to say "No, of course not." Then what is your litmus for referencing previous species, worlds, ships, characters that are acceptable to you? I don't think we can deny that fanservice exists; It's indeed there for fans to relate. It can be good, it can be bad, it can be light and it can be heavy. I'll generally accept it if it expands the world-building and the storytelling possibilities. If a story makes sense - thanks to, or despite it - I'll buy it. But if it's just there for the production to figuratively point at it while looking at us fans and saying "see, we care and know our stuff too!", I'll groan. If it's there to mask the lack of story, if it turns a storytelling product into a self-referential festival with little else, I'll be out. That's the reason why I can't watch Lower Decks. That's why I'm drifting out of most Disney mass geek products (MCU, SW), as the references become so numerous and often useless that it affects your understanding of the story. That's also why I hated the Moriarty cameo: It added absolutely nothing to the story, but it also made no sense within that story. I don't mind a connected universe, but it needs to make sense, which Star Trek often has a hard time with: Disco had a bad start with that, trying to nod to things Trek while simultaneously - and weirdly - reinventing too much for the awkward period it was stuck in during its first two seasons. The 31st century jump was a breath of fresh air, but by then, other issues took over (galactic threat of the season, tearingly talking through everything, a very small universe, etc.). I don't mind a connected universe, but it shouldn't make that world smaller to the point where it feels like that pocket universe Crusher was once stuck in, the way Star Trek (too often) do. If so, it literally just gets me out of the story, as I start seeing the strings, the production team just beyond the frame (something that happens to me a lot when watching Tarantino, for exemple) and the lack of internal logic. It's not breaking the fourth wall, but it's leaning heavily enough on it that I can't realistically see the world I'm being told about anymore. And that affects my enjoyment (which doesn't say anything against anybody else who still enjoys the product). But the truth is, despite all the groan-worthy references, the true sin of Picard's whichever season (but including S3) in my opinion is truly the horrible plot, nonsensical character development and general propension to throw shit in the fan to stir it all up and make it "darker". I still believe that after taking all the nostalgia nods out of the equation, S3 will not be that appreciated as a re-watching experience, even by many first-watch fans.
And the worst is, Picard had a great story to tell all along. It was not about androids, Borgs and AIs, though. I believe it should have been about the Romulan evacuation and its repercussions. It was fitting of an older Picard diplomat in all the right ways and they did so much of the setting for it!
But hey, I'm a bit jaded with things Trek. I feel its universe make little sense anymore as it's been an open sandbox with loose canon for too long. I like the ideas of Star Trek, I truly do. It's execution? Less and less. And that's on me, not on any fan who still enjoy it all. But it is sometimes a bit hard to understand what others see in it. Not because I'm better in any way, just because of my own subjective impression of the product I'm being offered, which too often seem to be a self-parody of what it used to be instead of trying something new while remaining firmly rooted in the universe it is set in. |
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Post by Tupperfan on Apr 20, 2023 1:30:04 GMT
I guess I was trying to find an example of fan service (in any show/film) that completely destroyed the show/film. Not just put people off. But literally destroyed the entirety of the show/film. I honestly can't think of any. Palpatine's return in "Rise of Skywalker" comes to mind as one of the worst examples I've seen. It literally made me give up on considering the sequel trilogy as part of my personal SW canon. |
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Apr 20, 2023 1:40:44 GMT
Yet no one else in Starfleet knew of its existence? Seems to me a full-on restoration of the former Federation flagship would've gotten some attention. I guess it's better to keep it hidden, even though the fleet museum is (presumably?) open to all Federation members. The Ent-A was just another refit Constitution-class starship that was renamed "Enterprise", IIRC, so its 'big reveal' at the end of STIV made some sense (esp. since Spacedock at Earth was a military facility). But Geordi's magic deus ex machina reveal of the Ent-D was terribly lazy scripting at best. A plaque in the background at Starfleet HQ in season one mentions that the saucer had been recovered and was in a fleet museum. Starfleet knew about it, they just didn't care because it was still "Totaled" and being worked on. You can look at the hull closely and still see the scarring of the hull from the crash. In the clip of next weeks episode that Prometheus posted, you can see the scorching from burning through the atmosphere on top of the saucer.  |
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Also As Worf said, the E had better weapon systems. Type XVI phasers over Type XII.
