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Post by ashleytinger on Apr 14, 2023 14:50:36 GMT
I didn't read the thread for the episode but it's gotten a bit more hostile once it hit the 80 plus pages mark. lol
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Post by Tupperfan on Apr 14, 2023 15:15:25 GMT
Just checked the poll: more than 50% gave the episode a perfect 10. Wow. That's not what I'd call a nuanced take.
Personally, there's probably 5 episodes in all of Trek I'd score a 100% grade. On the flip side, I'm not a fan of Picard and I wouldn't give a zero - or even a one - to any episode. A two might be warranted for the absolute worst, but I feel like there's usually one thing I liked (despite me focusing on the negative in my comments here) and my baseline is around 3-4.
But the fact that more than half the TrekBBS pollers believe that this (whatever this is) is just The Best... that's fanatical.
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Apr 14, 2023 15:39:20 GMT
I didn't read the thread for the episode but it's gotten a bit more hostile once it hit the 80 plus pages mark. lol LOL, I noticed that, too. It's quite fun to sit back and watch. |
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Apr 14, 2023 15:44:41 GMT
Just checked the poll: more than 50% gave the episode a perfect 10. Wow. That's not what I'd call a nuanced take. Personally, there's probably 5 episodes in all of Trek I'd score a 100% grade. On the flip side, I'm not a fan of Picard and I wouldn't give a zero - or even a one - to any episode. A two might be warranted for the absolute worst, but I feel like there's usually one thing I liked (despite me focusing on the negative in my comments here) and my baseline is around 3-4.
But the fact that more than half the TrekBBS pollers believe that this (whatever this is) is just The Best... that's fanatical.
Every episode has been predominately 9s and 10s there and I agree. There are very few 9s and 10s and maybe one or two zeros out of all of Trek. There are very few episodes I simply won't watch and even of those there's usually SOMETHING that's okay in it. |
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Post by RobinBland on Apr 14, 2023 15:52:34 GMT
Well, I got nuthin' really to add.
I watched it. The Borg reveal was, "Oh, yeah."
I concede that the "hidden virus" within Irumodic syndrome and transporter codes is a good idea, but how it took eight episodes to get here while time was wasted treading water with Vadic is beyond me. If that had created room for great drama between all the characters then I'd understand, but there was little in the way of that, except in terms of that dreadful cliffhanger ("You've killed us all!" ...I forget which ep) and all these horribly obvious nostalgic payoffs. Very, very strange decisions made about story structure and how this should all play out.
The reveal of the D also felt inevitable. I'm someone who was quite pained by her destruction in Generations - I wanted to see her further adventures on the big screen so theoretically I should've felt a big warm glow inside. However, in story terms, what's done is done. Sure, I get the thinking behind this scene, but this felt horribly manipulative. All storytelling is manipulative, in a way, but we, the audience and the readers, should never feel it. This whole season is what Vie called it - just a set of sequences of fanboy service rather than a story.
The actual dialogue on the bridge of the D was painful, when I recall how these various beloved characters showed their loyalty and friendship for each other through their actions and deeds, not with these overstated declarations.
I could go on... bringing Shelby back in a cameo only to (literally) waste her seems criminal.
Auuugh. [Charlie Brown style.] I never thought it'd be this awful. So disappointing.
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Post by nombrecomun on Apr 14, 2023 17:56:35 GMT
Well, I got nuthin' really to add. I watched it. The Borg reveal was, "Oh, yeah." I concede that the "hidden virus" within Irumodic syndrome and transporter codes is a good idea, but how it took eight episodes to get here while time was wasted treading water with Vadic is beyond me. If that had created room for great drama between all the characters then I'd understand, but there was little in the way of that, except in terms of that dreadful cliffhanger ("You've killed us all!" ...I forget which ep) and all these horribly obvious nostalgic payoffs. Very, very strange decisions made about story structure and how this should all play out. The reveal of the D also felt inevitable. I'm someone who was quite pained by her destruction in Generations - I wanted to see her further adventures on the big screen so theoretically I should've felt a big warm glow inside. However, in story terms, what's done is done. Sure, I get the thinking behind this scene, but this felt horribly manipulative. All storytelling is manipulative, in a way, but we, the audience and the readers, should never feel it. This whole season is what Vie called it - just a set of sequences of fanboy service rather than a story. The actual dialogue on the bridge of the D was painful, when I recall how these various beloved characters showed their loyalty and friendship for each other through their actions and deeds, not with these overstated declarations. I could go on... bringing Shelby back in a cameo only to (literally) waste her seems criminal. Auuugh. [Charlie Brown style.] I never thought it'd be this awful. So disappointing. I don't know how to quote select things so bear with me: - I liked the hidden virus thing but it seems odd that the Borg would resort to a biological weapon. Now, had there been mention that they were collaborating or had even managed to assimilate Species 8472 then that makes a bit more sense to me. Overall, it really doesn't matter. - To your point about wasting time with Vadic, this 'season' should have been 4 eps tops. Vadic should have been a guest star spot a la Roe. One ep. - I agree about the story structure. Picard, all 3 seasons, have felt more like run on sentences than complete paragraphs. I think they decide what an ep is in editing and they're just filming stuff. Oh, we're up to 45 minutes. Let's put a period right here and call it an ep. Very strange. - Yes, all storytelling is manipulative at some degree. The trick is to what degree and quality. This is cheaply done. - The dialog on the D was awful as you say although I did enjoy the line about the carpet. Are people supposed to feel some type of rising emotional inspiration? Is that what they were going for? 'Cause I don't see it. To be fair this type of cheesy dialog has been around for a while. Data's "...to hell with our orders" in FC was super cringey. - Speaking of the D, what is it that they think they can do with a seriously out of date ship? Granted, it works compared to the current fleet of ships taken over but it doesn't stand a chance against anyone of those modern vessels. I'm expecting a last minute "Well, what about all that equipment we're carrying to catalog gaseous anomalies? ...Well, the thing's got to have a tail pipe" line. I am just stunned that it seems people are happy to gobble up substandard material. It's happening in all these franchises(Star Wars, Marvel, DC, etc...). And it all seems to be related to tapping into your feelings about memories of something that happened within the franchise some time ago. The longer and more obscure the better? |
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Apr 14, 2023 18:03:06 GMT
Well, I got nuthin' really to add. I watched it. The Borg reveal was, "Oh, yeah." I concede that the "hidden virus" within Irumodic syndrome and transporter codes is a good idea, but how it took eight episodes to get here while time was wasted treading water with Vadic is beyond me. If that had created room for great drama between all the characters then I'd understand, but there was little in the way of that, except in terms of that dreadful cliffhanger ("You've killed us all!" ...I forget which ep) and all these horribly obvious nostalgic payoffs. Very, very strange decisions made about story structure and how this should all play out. The reveal of the D also felt inevitable. I'm someone who was quite pained by her destruction in Generations - I wanted to see her further adventures on the big screen so theoretically I should've felt a big warm glow inside. However, in story terms, what's done is done. Sure, I get the thinking behind this scene, but this felt horribly manipulative. All storytelling is manipulative, in a way, but we, the audience and the readers, should never feel it. This whole season is what Vie called it - just a set of sequences of fanboy service rather than a story. The actual dialogue on the bridge of the D was painful, when I recall how these various beloved characters showed their loyalty and friendship for each other through their actions and deeds, not with these overstated declarations. I could go on... bringing Shelby back in a cameo only to (literally) waste her seems criminal. Auuugh. [Charlie Brown style.] I never thought it'd be this awful. So disappointing. Vadic is insulting at this point because, look at how much time they burned just to let her over the top so hard that even General Chang would tell her to dial it back some. She was a red herring. She did nothing, accomplished nothing, and meant nothing. So much time wasted that could have been spent relationship building; letting the old guard relate to each other and the new guys. Rather than have the old guard as they were, it's just enough that they're there at all. It doesn't matter that the only time Picard or Riker argued on the bridge about anything one or both of them were under alien influence. Doesn't matter that the Riker I knew never would have been, "Welp, no power so that's it then. Let's all prepare to die." WTF? You know what would have given the reveal of the D gravitas? If they hadn't spent 8 episodes wallowing in winks and nods as it was.. If they had kept themselves grounded in their now, the D would feel like a wonderful story turn. I'm just painfully disappointed. |
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Apr 14, 2023 18:10:44 GMT
Well, I got nuthin' really to add. I watched it. The Borg reveal was, "Oh, yeah." I concede that the "hidden virus" within Irumodic syndrome and transporter codes is a good idea, but how it took eight episodes to get here while time was wasted treading water with Vadic is beyond me. If that had created room for great drama between all the characters then I'd understand, but there was little in the way of that, except in terms of that dreadful cliffhanger ("You've killed us all!" ...I forget which ep) and all these horribly obvious nostalgic payoffs. Very, very strange decisions made about story structure and how this should all play out. The reveal of the D also felt inevitable. I'm someone who was quite pained by her destruction in Generations - I wanted to see her further adventures on the big screen so theoretically I should've felt a big warm glow inside. However, in story terms, what's done is done. Sure, I get the thinking behind this scene, but this felt horribly manipulative. All storytelling is manipulative, in a way, but we, the audience and the readers, should never feel it. This whole season is what Vie called it - just a set of sequences of fanboy service rather than a story. The actual dialogue on the bridge of the D was painful, when I recall how these various beloved characters showed their loyalty and friendship for each other through their actions and deeds, not with these overstated declarations. I could go on... bringing Shelby back in a cameo only to (literally) waste her seems criminal. Auuugh. [Charlie Brown style.] I never thought it'd be this awful. So disappointing. I don't know how to quote select things so bear with me: - I liked the hidden virus thing but it seems odd that the Borg would resort to a biological weapon. Now, had there been mention that they were collaborating or had even managed to assimilate Species 8472 then that makes a bit more sense to me. Overall, it really doesn't matter. - To your point about wasting time with Vadic, this 'season' should have been 4 eps tops. Vadic should have been a guest star spot a la Roe. One ep. - I agree about the story structure. Picard, all 3 seasons, have felt more like run on sentences than complete paragraphs. I think they decide what an ep is in editing and they're just filming stuff. Oh, we're up to 45 minutes. Let's put a period right here and call it an ep. Very strange. - Yes, all storytelling is manipulative at some degree. The trick is to what degree and quality. This is cheaply done. - The dialog on the D was awful as you say although I did enjoy the line about the carpet. Are people supposed to feel some type of rising emotional inspiration? Is that what they were going for? 'Cause I don't see it. To be fair this type of cheesy dialog has been around for a while. Data's "...to hell with our orders" in FC was super cringey. - Speaking of the D, what is it that they think they can do with a seriously out of date ship? Granted, it works compared to the current fleet of ships taken over but it doesn't stand a chance against anyone of those modern vessels. I'm expecting a last minute "Well, what about all that equipment we're carrying to catalog gaseous anomalies? ...Well, the thing's got to have a tail pipe" line. I am just stunned that it seems people are happy to gobble up substandard material. It's happening in all these franchises(Star Wars, Marvel, DC, etc...). And it all seems to be related to tapping into your feelings about memories of something that happened within the franchise some time ago. The longer and more obscure the better? Hell, Data's line in FC was basically ripped right from Spock in TUC, and he delivered it better. And until someone shows me that Star Trek can do 10-episode arcs someday, it just isn't suited to the format. |
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Post by scenario on Apr 14, 2023 18:40:30 GMT
I don't know how to quote select things so bear with me: - I liked the hidden virus thing but it seems odd that the Borg would resort to a biological weapon. Now, had there been mention that they were collaborating or had even managed to assimilate Species 8472 then that makes a bit more sense to me. Overall, it really doesn't matter. - To your point about wasting time with Vadic, this 'season' should have been 4 eps tops. Vadic should have been a guest star spot a la Roe. One ep. - I agree about the story structure. Picard, all 3 seasons, have felt more like run on sentences than complete paragraphs. I think they decide what an ep is in editing and they're just filming stuff. Oh, we're up to 45 minutes. Let's put a period right here and call it an ep. Very strange. - Yes, all storytelling is manipulative at some degree. The trick is to what degree and quality. This is cheaply done. - The dialog on the D was awful as you say although I did enjoy the line about the carpet. Are people supposed to feel some type of rising emotional inspiration? Is that what they were going for? 'Cause I don't see it. To be fair this type of cheesy dialog has been around for a while. Data's "...to hell with our orders" in FC was super cringey. - Speaking of the D, what is it that they think they can do with a seriously out of date ship? Granted, it works compared to the current fleet of ships taken over but it doesn't stand a chance against anyone of those modern vessels. I'm expecting a last minute "Well, what about all that equipment we're carrying to catalog gaseous anomalies? ...Well, the thing's got to have a tail pipe" line. I am just stunned that it seems people are happy to gobble up substandard material. It's happening in all these franchises(Star Wars, Marvel, DC, etc...). And it all seems to be related to tapping into your feelings about memories of something that happened within the franchise some time ago. The longer and more obscure the better? Hell, Data's line in FC was basically ripped right from Spock in TUC, and he delivered it better. And until someone shows me that Star Trek can do 10-episode arcs someday, it just isn't suited to the format. It can do arcs. Single story 10 episode arcs. NG used to have two story lines an episode. Have an A,B, and C storyline where C is the season long arc. C only shows up for a minute or two for the first few episodes but is the main storyline at the end. Vadic was pure filler. |
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Post by SherlockHolmes on Apr 14, 2023 18:45:44 GMT
And what Matsulas or whatever his face excuse for decommissioning the E and F is dumb. Flag ships do not get more mileage than other ships thats pure bogus. He doesn't know what the F he's talking about.
Starshpis take a lot a LOT of resources to build from the ground up.
Also, surely they didn't rebuild that bridge set (yes its a new set, the old one was destroyed and thrown into dumpsters) just for 1 episode, surely to goodness. If they can afford to do that, Star Trek needs its budget cut before everything gets canceled for being too expensive. The bridge set is one of the top 5 most expensive things to build in any series or movie, so everyone knows DRESS THE HELL OUT OF IT FOR OTHER SHIPS.....also Enterprise-F = Discovery Bridge.
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Post by SherlockHolmes on Apr 14, 2023 18:57:28 GMT
BUMP: Sorry
Also, these cheesy lines and cheesy acting OMG "We're the crew of the USS Enterprise, we are your family" "Jack, so and so and so and so, they're our family too" and I was like oh my God this is so G'DAMNED CHEESY. This is so much cheese that it will put Kraft out of business. It was very familiar. Then I was like, I KNOW WHERE IVE SEEN THIS TYPE OF DIALOGUE BEFORE: MIGHTY MORPHIN POWER RANGERS. "We can do it" "LEts do it" "Remember what we learned? To those who posses the great power, all things are possible" "Once a Ranger, always a Ranger" "You'll always be a Ranger in Spirit" . Like I been trying to figure out what was so damned familiar about this since the more "Optimistic" seasons 3 and 4 of Discovery like "We're Starfleet. We can do anything" and BS like that. its more like "WE'RE THE POWER RANGERS, AND WE'RE UNSTOPPABLE" or "You just got to believe in yourself" "It's who we are". "ITS MORPHIN TIME!!!!...EH..I MEAN... MAKE IT SO!!!"
Edit: Also, nitpick thats driving me bonkers, even as a colorblind person, those lights above the useless side panels on the bridge are the wrong color. they should be bluish. not yellowish green.
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Apr 14, 2023 21:04:55 GMT
BUMP: Sorry Also, these cheesy lines and cheesy acting OMG "We're the crew of the USS Enterprise, we are your family" "Jack, so and so and so and so, they're our family too" and I was like oh my God this is so G'DAMNED CHEESY. This is so much cheese that it will put Kraft out of business. It was very familiar. Then I was like, I KNOW WHERE IVE SEEN THIS TYPE OF DIALOGUE BEFORE: MIGHTY MORPHIN POWER RANGERS. "We can do it" "LEts do it" "Remember what we learned? To those who posses the great power, all things are possible" "Once a Ranger, always a Ranger" "You'll always be a Ranger in Spirit" . Like I been trying to figure out what was so damned familiar about this since the more "Optimistic" seasons 3 and 4 of Discovery like "We're Starfleet. We can do anything" and BS like that. its more like "WE'RE THE POWER RANGERS, AND WE'RE UNSTOPPABLE" or "You just got to believe in yourself" "It's who we are". "ITS MORPHIN TIME!!!!...EH..I MEAN... MAKE IT SO!!!" Edit: Also, nitpick thats driving me bonkers, even as a colorblind person, those lights above the useless side panels on the bridge are the wrong color. they should be bluish. not yellowish green. Allow me to break down the finale for you: It's going to be a race to Earth, some dodging ships, some pew-pew, a slapdash solution, probably that includes some magic "Jack ALSO inherited some little key to resisting the Queen from Picard, so HE'S the best of BOTH of them because son." Get it? Do you GET IT? Because Picard and Crusher are gonna spend half a scene talking about JUST THAT ONE THING. Because you need to GET IT. The Borg die again, The fleet is, "Wha happah?" Whoever is left gushes praise on the crew, Picard and the gang gush praise on each other and, again, wax high school on what great brochachos they are, sign each other's yearbooks, Picard says, "Engage," and a fade to black. After Seven maybe gets to enjoy the center seat of the Titan for a minute because "WaIT foR ThE SPinOFf" Sorry about the spoilers. |
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Post by scenario on Apr 14, 2023 21:18:55 GMT
This reminds me of Monty Pythons last live shows almost ten years ago. Terry Jones was very sick so they all did a show to pay his mortgage. They didn't write new material. They did the old skits word for word. When they forgot a line the audience laughed even harder. The fans were saying their lines with them. Fans didn't want anything new. They wanted the old times.
To many fans Picard is like an old rock star. They want to hear the old hits from 30 or 40 years ago, not the new stuff. This is a farewell tour of all the old hits.
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Apr 14, 2023 21:36:14 GMT
Basically this.
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Post by Tupperfan on Apr 14, 2023 22:53:01 GMT
BUMP: Sorry Also, these cheesy lines and cheesy acting OMG "We're the crew of the USS Enterprise, we are your family" "Jack, so and so and so and so, they're our family too" and I was like oh my God this is so G'DAMNED CHEESY. This is so much cheese that it will put Kraft out of business. It was very familiar. Then I was like, I KNOW WHERE IVE SEEN THIS TYPE OF DIALOGUE BEFORE: MIGHTY MORPHIN POWER RANGERS. "We can do it" "LEts do it" "Remember what we learned? To those who posses the great power, all things are possible" "Once a Ranger, always a Ranger" "You'll always be a Ranger in Spirit" . Like I been trying to figure out what was so damned familiar about this since the more "Optimistic" seasons 3 and 4 of Discovery like "We're Starfleet. We can do anything" and BS like that. its more like "WE'RE THE POWER RANGERS, AND WE'RE UNSTOPPABLE" or "You just got to believe in yourself" "It's who we are". "ITS MORPHIN TIME!!!!...EH..I MEAN... MAKE IT SO!!!" Edit: Also, nitpick thats driving me bonkers, even as a colorblind person, those lights above the useless side panels on the bridge are the wrong color. they should be bluish. not yellowish green. Allow me to break down the finale for you: It's going to be a race to Earth, some dodging ships, some pew-pew, a slapdash solution, probably that includes some magic "Jack ALSO inherited some little key to resisting the Queen from Picard, so HE'S the best of BOTH of them because son." Get it? Do you GET IT? Because Picard and Crusher are gonna spend half a scene talking about JUST THAT ONE THING. Because you need to GET IT. The Borg die again, The fleet is, "Wha happah?" Whoever is left gushes praise on the crew, Picard and the gang gush praise on each other and, again, wax high school on what great brochachos they are, sign each other's yearbooks, Picard says, "Engage," and a fade to black. After Seven maybe gets to enjoy the center seat of the Titan for a minute because "WaIT foR ThE SPinOFf" Sorry about the spoilers.
Well, seems like I'm having a hard time posting GIFs and images, but basically this. |
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Post by The Founder on Apr 15, 2023 1:21:43 GMT
So... I'm going to take the really unpopular side here and disagree with everyone.
Number 1: Most of the people on TrekBBS are not fanboys that love everything PIC. I'm not talking about the poll. I'm talking about the actual posters on there. I make even the tiniest comment about the show and get crapped on by multiple posters because I love "nostalgia" or whatever garbage. The piling on from that forum is not from people that love the nostalgia but from the people that are essentially bitter we didn't get more of the anti-TNG garbage that was Seasons 1 and 2 where we got the adventures of Patrick Stewart wanting to recreate Professor Xavier in "Logan" but with a Captain Picard skin.
I'm genuinely surprised that the posters on here think that the forum is filled to the brim with people that love everything about PIC. A lot of the posters (not all) are annoyingly combative and argumentative for the slightest thing on there. The mods must be asleep.
Number 2: Ok ... so apparently this is a "spicy take" but... There is no such thing as fan service. There, I said it. It's a made up, nonsensical term that is so nebulous and all encompassing that it is essentially whatever you want it to be. Why are these beloved episodes/moments? Scotty made an appearance from being stuck in a transporter beam. The VOY finding the only Klingons in the Delta Quadrant? The Klingon Augment arc in ENT? Q thinking Riker was going to get command of Voyager? Captain Kirk fighting alongside Captain Picard? Dax fawning over Spock? Did you think those were fan service or were you ok with it? If you were, why?
Fan service just means what you are prepared to accept in terms of cross overs, references, call backs, cameos, and direct guest spots. You might be willing to tolerate Spock appearing on TNG, but you aren't willing to tolerate Spock is Burnham's brother. Why? What arbitrary line was crossed for you? You might be willing to stomach seeing the Defiant in a brief cameo in "First Contact" but you would have balked at the ENT-E being in DS9 during the Dominion War. Why? What arbitrary line was crossed for you?
Is this just Star Trek or do you apply these rigid standards in every show or film? Is it fan service that the Fellow of the Ring just happened to find the Mines of Moria connected to the Dwarf from the Hobbit novel?
These shows are made for fans. Of course we're meant to enjoy and celebrate the cross overs. It's a connected universe. It makes no sense to want a Star Trek show that has little to no connections with its previous iterations. I don't even understand the mindset behind that. Sorry to sound gatekeepy but what is the point of liking these universes if you balk at any connections between the shows?
This is the final season of PIC and likely the last time we'll ever see the TNG cast together. Why is it so bad that instead of that garbage 23rd century throwback ship (Titan), we send them on one final mission on the ENT-D. For years, fans complained that Nemesis was a terrible send off for the cast. We get another go at it and fans are still mad because... "fan service"?
Fan service doesn't exist, people. It's your subjective taste. It's the line you've built for yourself that you use as a litmus of what you'll accept. You'll tolerate McCoy seeing the ENT-D off in the pilot, but damnit you don't want Ro Laren to pop up in one episode? Huh?
I'm sorry. It's just so weird to me. I'm not attacking anyone or saying you're wrong to dislike PIC. Hell, I hated S1 and S2. Minus a few good moments, they were awful. I get it. It's a disappointment but the parts that I hated were not seeing Hugh again or seeing Seven again or mentioning Gul Dukat or mentioning Odo or whatever. What I hated was the terrible plot and the lack of true follow up of the 24th century.
For the people that hate "fan service" - do you essentially want bottle shows where none of the events of the previous show are ever mentioned in any way? If you're going to say "No, of course not." Then what is your litmus for referencing previous species, worlds, ships, characters that are acceptable to you?
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Post by scenario on Apr 15, 2023 1:41:09 GMT
So... I'm going to take the really unpopular side here and disagree with everyone. Number 1: Most of the people on TrekBBS are not fanboys that love everything PIC. I'm not talking about the poll. I'm talking about the actual posters on there. I make even the tiniest comment about the show and get crapped on by multiple posters because I love "nostalgia" or whatever garbage. The piling on from that forum is not from people that love the nostalgia but from the people that are essentially bitter we didn't get more of the anti-TNG garbage that was Seasons 1 and 2 where we got the adventures of Patrick Stewart wanting to recreate Professor Xavier in "Logan" but with a Captain Picard skin. I'm genuinely surprised that the posters on here think that the forum is filled to the brim with people that love everything about PIC. A lot of the posters (not all) are annoyingly combative and argumentative for the slightest thing on there. The mods must be asleep. Number 2: Ok ... so apparently this is a "spicy take" but... There is no such thing as fan service. There, I said it. It's a made up, nonsensical term that is so nebulous and all encompassing that it is essentially whatever you want it to be. Why are these beloved episodes/moments? Scotty made an appearance from being stuck in a transporter beam. The VOY finding the only Klingons in the Delta Quadrant? The Klingon Augment arc in ENT? Q thinking Riker was going to get command of Voyager? Captain Kirk fighting alongside Captain Picard? Dax fawning over Spock? Did you think those were fan service or were you ok with it? If you were, why? Fan service just means what you are prepared to accept in terms of cross overs, references, call backs, cameos, and direct guest spots. You might be willing to tolerate Spock appearing on TNG, but you aren't willing to tolerate Spock is Burnham's brother. Why? What arbitrary line was crossed for you? You might be willing to stomach seeing the Defiant in a brief cameo in "First Contact" but you would have balked at the ENT-E being in DS9 during the Dominion War. Why? What arbitrary line was crossed for you? Is this just Star Trek or do you apply these rigid standards in every show or film? Is it fan service that the Fellow of the Ring just happened to find the Mines of Moria connected to the Dwarf from the Hobbit novel? These shows are made for fans. Of course we're meant to enjoy and celebrate the cross overs. It's a connected universe. It makes no sense to want a Star Trek show that has little to no connections with its previous iterations. I don't even understand the mindset behind that. Sorry to sound gatekeepy but what is the point of liking these universes if you balk at any connections between the shows? This is the final season of PIC and likely the last time we'll ever see the TNG cast together. Why is it so bad that instead of that garbage 23rd century throwback ship (Titan), we send them on one final mission on the ENT-D. For years, fans complained that Nemesis was a terrible send off for the cast. We get another go at it and fans are still mad because... "fan service"? Fan service doesn't exist, people. It's your subjective taste. It's the line you've built for yourself that you use as a litmus of what you'll accept. You'll tolerate McCoy seeing the ENT-D off in the pilot, but damnit you don't want Ro Laren to pop up in one episode? Huh? I'm sorry. It's just so weird to me. I'm not attacking anyone or saying you're wrong to dislike PIC. Hell, I hated S1 and S2. Minus a few good moments, they were awful. I get it. It's a disappointment but the parts that I hated were not seeing Hugh again or seeing Seven again or mentioning Gul Dukat or mentioning Odo or whatever. What I hated was the terrible plot and the lack of true follow up of the 24th century. For the people that hate "fan service" - do you essentially want bottle shows where none of the events of the previous show are ever mentioned in any way? If you're going to say "No, of course not." Then what is your litmus for referencing previous species, worlds, ships, characters that are acceptable to you? 1) I've never been to TrekBBS so I have no idea what's going on. 2) I call it fan service when the show is nothing but callbacks. The Monty Python final appearance was pure fan service. I only have a problem when it is supposed to be a new story and the plots only purpose is to connect fan service themes. Its like a flashback episode where 90% of the episode are old scenes. Its when spotting the callback becomes a drinking game. An example. A series final episode is a special 2 hour episode where they invite back the fans 40 or 50 favorite characters. It can be fun to see them but its rarely a good episode. |
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Post by The Founder on Apr 15, 2023 2:19:59 GMT
1) I've never been to TrekBBS so I have no idea what's going on. 2) I call it fan service when the show is nothing but callbacks. The Monty Python final appearance was pure fan service. I only have a problem when it is supposed to be a new story and the plots only purpose is to connect fan service themes. Its like a flashback episode where 90% of the episode are old scenes. Its when spotting the callback becomes a drinking game. An example. A series final episode is a special 2 hour episode where they invite back the fans 40 or 50 favorite characters. It can be fun to see them but its rarely a good episode. Thanks for the response. I'm genuinely trying to understand this because "fan service" has really become a bit of a catch-all buzz word I've noticed across all fandoms (not just in this forum). I'm not trying to argue with you. I just don't understand it. I don't think I have ever seen a show or film that "is nothing but callbacks". I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I've never seen it. Considering the fear/hatred of "fan service", I would expect that concept has destroyed multiple shows/films. It honestly just seems like this is some type of pet peeves for people based on subjective lines. Monty Python is just a comedy show, so I don't really expect much. So, do you feel that PIC in season 3 is nothing but "fan service"? I honestly feel that PIC season 3 is going "overboard" (as others say) with the call backs because S1 fought so hard to be the anti-TNG S8. So now they're cramming as much as possible as in S3 because they're making up lost time. Especially since is their swan song. |
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Post by scenario on Apr 15, 2023 2:54:02 GMT
I'm not a fan of Seinfeld but I've heard the last episode was the main characters going on trial and the witnesses were all fan favorite characters. The whole purpose was to get as many in as possible.
What the show feels like to me is they called around to fan favorite actors and asked if they wanted to be in the show. Then they looked for a villain. Who was the big bads in ST, The Dominion and the Borg. Now what would fans like to see, the Enterprise D has one last flight. Ship porn. Picard/Crusher. Lots of obscure references.
Then they sat down and wrote a plot whose purpose was to include as many of these elements as possible whether or not they fit the storyline. It just feels like half of what was filmed was filler. It feels like "Shades of Grey" to me.
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Apr 15, 2023 3:33:51 GMT
Number 2: Ok ... so apparently this is a "spicy take" but... There is no such thing as fan service. There, I said it. It's a made up, nonsensical term that is so nebulous and all encompassing that it is essentially whatever you want it to be. Why are these beloved episodes/moments? Scotty made an appearance from being stuck in a transporter beam. The VOY finding the only Klingons in the Delta Quadrant? The Klingon Augment arc in ENT? Q thinking Riker was going to get command of Voyager? Captain Kirk fighting alongside Captain Picard? Dax fawning over Spock? Did you think those were fan service or were you ok with it? If you were, why?
For myself, some of them worked more than others, but the ones that really did honestly served a greater story. Bringing Scotty back? Gave the character some very good moments that fit the character and gave him resolution within a decent story.
Fan service is just there. It goes nowhere, does nothing to service the story, and is just there to show people that someone else remembers Picard's flute, too. And everything wrong with it is amplified when the story is garbage. Picard's story is pitifully weak.
These shows are made for fans. Of course we're meant to enjoy and celebrate the cross overs. It's a connected universe. It makes no sense to want a Star Trek show that has little to no connections with its previous iterations. I don't even understand the mindset behind that. Sorry to sound gatekeepy but what is the point of liking these universes if you balk at any connections between the shows?
Nor should the universe be so small that everyone knows everyone. Or that it all feels explored already.
This is the final season of PIC and likely the last time we'll ever see the TNG cast together. Why is it so bad that instead of that garbage 23rd century throwback ship (Titan), we send them on one final mission on the ENT-D. For years, fans complained that Nemesis was a terrible send off for the cast.
Because this is worse than Nemesis. These people are just being trotted out to put them on screen. They scarcely resemble the people they were 30 years ago. Riker doesn't just give up. Picard doesn't beg and whine.
Fan service doesn't exist, people. It's your subjective taste. It's the line you've built for yourself that you use as a litmus of what you'll accept. You'll tolerate McCoy seeing the ENT-D off in the pilot, but damnit you don't want Ro Laren to pop up in one episode? Huh?
Just to fanservice. Yes, fanservice. "OMG, it's Ro!" But don't get used to her, she's just around to die. Not just Shelby, but "Let's bring a Shelby back that never would have spearheaded networking Starfleet and to do nothing more than give a 4th grader's speech on Federation awesomeness."
It's all just been a urine poor use of characters in a ridiculous plot, a full third of which has been proven literally meaningless because something has to be there because we couldn't just straight up admit we were using the Borg again.
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Post by The Founder on Apr 15, 2023 3:37:14 GMT
I'm not a fan of Seinfeld but I've heard the last episode was the main characters going on trial and the witnesses were all fan favorite characters. The whole purpose was to get as many in as possible. What the show feels like to me is they called around to fan favorite actors and asked if they wanted to be in the show. Then they looked for a villain. Who was the big bads in ST, The Dominion and the Borg. Now what would fans like to see, the Enterprise D has one last flight. Ship porn. Picard/Crusher. Lots of obscure references. Then they sat down and wrote a plot whose purpose was to include as many of these elements as possible whether or not they fit the storyline. It just feels like half of what was filmed was filler. It feels like "Shades of Grey" to me. I think it's a bit different with generic comedy shows. I think a lot of so-called fan service or references aren't a big deal in comedy. In comedy shows, anything goes and they can be as silly and irreverent as they want. I'm talking about in non-comedy shows where it's a shared universe. I get the examples you provided but what I don't get is why it is bad. I'm assuming that since fan service is almost exclusively referred to in the negative - it is a thing that's genuinely bad. That is derails the show/film and robs of it of all originality. However, I don't get that vibe from S3 at all. Would the show's plot have been better enhanced if instead of Founders/Dominion, we got generic shape-shifting alien species #144005 introduced? And for whatever reason they hated the UFP? What would be different if they used the Founders over the generic, made for PIC only shape shifter aliens #144005? What is the novelty of the latter idea? That's it's new? It's the same plot but using the Founders gives a better connection to the universe. That's how I feel. Sometimes making something "new" doesn't always work. If I could change Star Trek: Insurrection's villains to being the Dominion over the plastic surgery aliens? I would. I'm sure my idea would be accused of "fan service" but ... new doesn't always equate to good. (in my opinion) Do you feel that S3 PIC is bad because of it? |
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Apr 15, 2023 3:42:51 GMT
Why does it have to be a bad guy, generic or not?
Because, really, how often was TNG (the series) about a bad guy? If you're going to truly have a TNG swan song, why are we doing things that TNG was never really known for or particularly good at?
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Post by The Founder on Apr 15, 2023 3:55:56 GMT
Number 2: Ok ... so apparently this is a "spicy take" but... There is no such thing as fan service. There, I said it. It's a made up, nonsensical term that is so nebulous and all encompassing that it is essentially whatever you want it to be. Why are these beloved episodes/moments? Scotty made an appearance from being stuck in a transporter beam. The VOY finding the only Klingons in the Delta Quadrant? The Klingon Augment arc in ENT? Q thinking Riker was going to get command of Voyager? Captain Kirk fighting alongside Captain Picard? Dax fawning over Spock? Did you think those were fan service or were you ok with it? If you were, why?For myself, some of them worked more than others, but the ones that really did honestly served a greater story. Bringing Scotty back? Gave the character some very good moments that fit the character and gave him resolution within a decent story. Fan service is just there. It goes nowhere, does nothing to service the story, and is just there to show people that someone else remembers Picard's flute, too. And everything wrong with it is amplified when the story is garbage. Picard's story is pitifully weak Some would argue that Seven's presence in PIC gave her very good moments that fit her character and continued her growth. Others would call it fan service. Who is right here? Does everything has to service the story, though? If Picard randomly said he picked up piano, thus explaining why a piano was in his quarters (but does not play on it or do anything with it beyond mentioning it) - why is that different from him randomly mentioning his flute or having it on his desk? I genuinely don't see the difference between the two except one having a more logical reason for being there (the flute based on his history). It honestly feels like the same thing but fans bristle at any throwback. And when you say some work but others don't - are you saying that you ARE ok with some fan service? I'm just trying to understand why. These shows are made for fans. Of course we're meant to enjoy and celebrate the cross overs. It's a connected universe. It makes no sense to want a Star Trek show that has little to no connections with its previous iterations. I don't even understand the mindset behind that. Sorry to sound gatekeepy but what is the point of liking these universes if you balk at any connections between the shows?Nor should the universe be so small that everyone knows everyone. Or that it all feels explored already. But that has yet to happen in PIC (or Mandalorian or any other show). Even in this episode, Seven wasn't like "OMG ITS DATA! I KNOW HIM! WERE FRIENDS!" She instead says "Yes, the robot is right." as if Data was just some rando robot character. Having these characters cross each other's paths doesn't feel inorganic. I would understand your argument if Picard was fighting those Mass Effect Reapers in Season 1 and out of the blue Kira appears on the Defiant, destroys them, and says "I just happened to be in the sector." Nothing, thus far, really feels like it's a massive stretch for their involvement except for maybe Worf being Raffi's handler. But even then - is that tiny conceit really enough to say the show's quality was dragged down? This is the final season of PIC and likely the last time we'll ever see the TNG cast together. Why is it so bad that instead of that garbage 23rd century throwback ship (Titan), we send them on one final mission on the ENT-D. For years, fans complained that Nemesis was a terrible send off for the cast.Because this is worse than Nemesis. These people are just being trotted out to put them on screen. They scarcely resemble the people they were 30 years ago. Riker doesn't just give up. Picard doesn't beg and whine. That's fine. I don't disagree that PIC has been awful in their development of where the characters ended up, but that's not really fan service. That's poor writing. Fan service doesn't exist, people. It's your subjective taste. It's the line you've built for yourself that you use as a litmus of what you'll accept. You'll tolerate McCoy seeing the ENT-D off in the pilot, but damnit you don't want Ro Laren to pop up in one episode? Huh?
Just to fanservice. Yes, fanservice. "OMG, it's Ro!" But don't get used to her, she's just around to die. Not just Shelby, but "Let's bring a Shelby back that never would have spearheaded networking Starfleet and to do nothing more than give a 4th grader's speech on Federation awesomeness." Even if Ro had a Seven/Raffi sized role in the season, it would still be accused of fan service. Maybe not by you but others would. The mere mention of the existence of the other shows is being derided as unoriginal and nostalgia bate. It's all just been a urine poor use of characters in a ridiculous plot, a full third of which has been proven literally meaningless because something has to be there because we couldn't just straight up admit we were using the Borg again. I'm in agreement that the writing is awful and a lot of the characters are ... out of character. But that's a writing problem. The USS Hikaru Sulu on a screen, the mention of Odo, the mention of the ENT-E, the return of the ENT-D, etc. have nothing to do with the awful writing. I'm not disagreeing that the PIC trilogy was a disappointment and not what I had hoped for. I'm just wondering what is the hyper obsession with the fan service concept.[/quote] |
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Apr 15, 2023 3:57:13 GMT
Well, I got nuthin' really to add. I watched it. The Borg reveal was, "Oh, yeah." I concede that the "hidden virus" within Irumodic syndrome and transporter codes is a good idea, but how it took eight episodes to get here while time was wasted treading water with Vadic is beyond me. If that had created room for great drama between all the characters then I'd understand, but there was little in the way of that, except in terms of that dreadful cliffhanger ("You've killed us all!" ...I forget which ep) and all these horribly obvious nostalgic payoffs. Very, very strange decisions made about story structure and how this should all play out. The reveal of the D also felt inevitable. I'm someone who was quite pained by her destruction in Generations - I wanted to see her further adventures on the big screen so theoretically I should've felt a big warm glow inside. However, in story terms, what's done is done. Sure, I get the thinking behind this scene, but this felt horribly manipulative. All storytelling is manipulative, in a way, but we, the audience and the readers, should never feel it. This whole season is what Vie called it - just a set of sequences of fanboy service rather than a story. The actual dialogue on the bridge of the D was painful, when I recall how these various beloved characters showed their loyalty and friendship for each other through their actions and deeds, not with these overstated declarations. I could go on... bringing Shelby back in a cameo only to (literally) waste her seems criminal. Auuugh. [Charlie Brown style.] I never thought it'd be this awful. So disappointing. Excellent summation. Overall, it's not quite the hot stinking mess that was S2, but it's bad enough. Charlie Brown pretty much sums up my feelings on it, was well. This could've easily been me, watching yesterday's episode:  |
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Post by RobinBland on Apr 15, 2023 12:55:55 GMT
Fan service is just there. It goes nowhere, does nothing to service the story, and is just there to show people that someone else remembers Picard's flute, too. And everything wrong with it is amplified when the story is garbage. Picard's story is pitifully weak.
Well, we got a really good definition of what “fan service” is re: Picard S3 out of this… [finger pointing upwards] The issue with Picard S3 is that callbacks and nostalgia fuel the story, not ideas. Plus, in this case, the characters are largely unrecognizable. To take some other metaphors that have been offered in the thread above, I have no problem with a band or comedy troupe remixing and representing their greatest hits over offering new material. Everyone is entitled to a victory lap, especially if it’s the farewell tour. This whole season has been designed as a curtain call for TNG, so it’s therefore inevitable that you’ll get some of the old refrains - or, if you prefer - some fanwank of some kind; easter eggs, nostalgia, fan service, call it what you will. But when the overall tapestry and meaning of a story is overwhelmed by same, those sorts of visual and plot motifs just become bland. It purées and reduces everything to a kind of cultural karaoke. The songs are the same, but they’re just not sung with the spirit of the originals. I think that has happened here. It’s happened because of some poor structuring and wasted opportunities, some bad ideas and weird decisions. I don’t ever want to call anything “bad writing,” because I know what it takes to sit down and write and create something original out of nothing. It’s bloody hard work. But there isn’t much original thinking here. As has also been noted previously, it feels like an AI plotted this out from a list of imperatives and then human writers joined the dots with some crummy dialogue. As I perceive it, in terms of quality of writing, Picard S3 isn’t on a par with Picard S1, not remotely. It overtakes S2 slightly simply because of the presence of these actors I love. I’m sad they felt the need to retcon Starfleet’s essential mission of peaceful exploration to make a villain as ridiculous as Vadic fit. These, however, are the times we live in and Star Trek, as ever, is reflective of those. I’m left asking, is it me? Most of my friends on this board also appear to feel a similar way, so I know it’s not just me and I’m not just some joyless, taciturn old curmudgeon who can’t enjoy himself. I wish I could feel like all the people netwide who are singing this season’s praises. Good for them; I’m genuinely happy for them. I wish I could overlook what I feel are this season’s many flaws. I don’t hate it. I don’t love it. Unfortunately I don’t even like it - I feel largely indifferent, and to feel indifferent to something that you know is intended as a party and celebration for all fans is not a great feeling to experience. I actually went back to watch the whole unveiling of the 1701-D sequence last night to see if I could silence my inner critic and muster some joy at that, and you know what, second time around, it was nice. I still hated the cloying dialogue on the bridge, but it was lovely to see the old girl (or at least her saucer section) exiting the space museum and racing to the rescue next week. One more dance before we call it a day, eh? I’m not sure I’ll ever see this season as a drama worthy of closing out these characters’ stories, but I appreciate that Terry Matalas and his production team tried. |
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Post by RobinBland on Apr 15, 2023 12:57:44 GMT
Well, I got nuthin' really to add. I watched it. The Borg reveal was, "Oh, yeah." I concede that the "hidden virus" within Irumodic syndrome and transporter codes is a good idea, but how it took eight episodes to get here while time was wasted treading water with Vadic is beyond me. If that had created room for great drama between all the characters then I'd understand, but there was little in the way of that, except in terms of that dreadful cliffhanger ("You've killed us all!" ...I forget which ep) and all these horribly obvious nostalgic payoffs. Very, very strange decisions made about story structure and how this should all play out. The reveal of the D also felt inevitable. I'm someone who was quite pained by her destruction in Generations - I wanted to see her further adventures on the big screen so theoretically I should've felt a big warm glow inside. However, in story terms, what's done is done. Sure, I get the thinking behind this scene, but this felt horribly manipulative. All storytelling is manipulative, in a way, but we, the audience and the readers, should never feel it. This whole season is what Vie called it - just a set of sequences of fanboy service rather than a story. The actual dialogue on the bridge of the D was painful, when I recall how these various beloved characters showed their loyalty and friendship for each other through their actions and deeds, not with these overstated declarations. I could go on... bringing Shelby back in a cameo only to (literally) waste her seems criminal. Auuugh. [Charlie Brown style.] I never thought it'd be this awful. So disappointing. Excellent summation. Overall, it's not quite the hot stinking mess that was S2, but it's bad enough. Charlie Brown pretty much sums up my feelings on it, was well. This could've easily been me, watching yesterday's episode: Charlie Brown (AKA the late, great Charles Schulz, one of the greatest philosophers and commenters upon the human condition the USA has ever produced) used to call this feeling “Blah.” |
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Post by Garak Nephew on Apr 15, 2023 13:46:39 GMT
So... I'm going to take the really unpopular side here and disagree with everyone. Unpopular takes are good and important. Take it from me, I really like Lower Decks and that show is not going to get any love here once the new season start.
As for fan service. My position is that fan service is a real thing, but most of what we call fan service is there to waterdown the story, flashy things to distract to viewer or the fan, but some of them are used thoughtfully. Call it fan service, callbacks or nostalgia nuggets, these are devices that provide structure to a tale when this tale is build around a known universe. Fan service is a bug inside the writer's head, "like a splinter in your mind driving you insane" to quote Morpheus.
PIC season 3 is an example of how bad fan service could get when an IP drag its past like an anchor. The callbacks are just resting there as shinny things so that fans can go "ahh" "ohh". There are some good example. Take, for instance, the appearance of the name Benny Russell on the fantastic episode of SNW "The Elysian Kingdom". We may have really great disagreements about the meaning of Benny Russell -in general and in the episode- (as we did back in Omega Sector) but the fact remains that how the writers used it on SNW grew organically from the story and provided context for the ongoing story of the episode AND Russell itself. It wasn't an ornamental thing.
In my opinion, most of the time fan service do a disservice to the story, it set it's frame on a stagnant, stale notion of a fan ("meh, they just want the same, lets give it to them"), and view them like puppets, like a straw thing going on a Conventions loop. If a writer or creative really care about a character, don't throw them back to the usual tropes. Use, instead, the SAME character but tweak it a little bit. I was in the minority in my appreciation of how Ro was brought back. I was able to SEE her, it was to me the real Ro, but the scars were visible. It was a good use of a callback. The only good one of this season.
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Post by Garak Nephew on Apr 15, 2023 14:07:13 GMT
Allow me to break down the finale for you: It's going to be a race to Earth, some dodging ships, some pew-pew, a slapdash solution, probably that includes some magic "Jack ALSO inherited some little key to resisting the Queen from Picard, so HE'S the best of BOTH of them because son." Get it? Do you GET IT? Because Picard and Crusher are gonna spend half a scene talking about JUST THAT ONE THING. Because you need to GET IT. The Borg die again, The fleet is, "Wha happah?" Whoever is left gushes praise on the crew, Picard and the gang gush praise on each other and, again, wax high school on what great brochachos they are, sign each other's yearbooks, Picard says, "Engage," and a fade to black. After Seven maybe gets to enjoy the center seat of the Titan for a minute because "WaIT foR ThE SPinOFf" Sorry about the spoilers. Yes! This is pretty much what is going to happen.
I would dare to add another prediction: Riker will die. Some sacrifice situation will be concocted... All those comments (about darkness, about the "void" that await all of us...) early in the season were paving the way for his exist. We'll see.
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Post by scenario on Apr 15, 2023 14:57:20 GMT
I think the series will end with a Picard speech. Everything can be fixed with a good speech.
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Post by scenario on Apr 15, 2023 15:05:28 GMT
I think fan service isn't inherently bad. Its like a man buying his girlfriend flowers. But if he buys her flowers 3, 4, 5 times a day in place of communication and affection and all of the other things that make a relationship work it can be toxic. Every individual has a different line between sweet and toxic. I think to an extent Picard has replaced plot and character development with nostalgia.
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I am so sorry...
Jul 14, 2024 1:18:27 GMT
I am so sorry...
Jul 14, 2024 1:18:27 GMT