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Post by nombrecomun on Nov 4, 2023 0:15:25 GMT
I figure I'd create this to provide a safe space to talk about this nightmare. There's soooo much to say about it.
My first question is what the hell did Hamas think they would achieve from this? They must have known the reaction would be brutal. It's a prime opportunity for Israel to take over the Gaza Strip and get rid off Palestinians once and for all.
The second question is how did such an attack happen by surprise? I would have thought Israel had better intelligence agency?
These two things just bug me to no end.
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Post by scenario on Nov 4, 2023 3:43:27 GMT
One thing I've read is that Trump gave detailed plans of Israel's defenses and they gave them to Hamas.
If A terrorist organization in Mexico did the same thing when Trump was president something similar would have happened.
Hamas wanted this to happen. There are a lot of people around the world who already hate Jewish people.
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Post by Garak Nephew on Nov 4, 2023 19:18:59 GMT
Indeed a firey topic! A lot of passions rise to the surface with it, maybe because ideas of the world and modernity come clashing to it.
Let me give it a shot. I am with the Palestinians and Jewish people BUT NOT with Israel and Hamas. I take most of my position from historians and thinkers like Edward Said and Ilan Pappé.
Zionism, as an ideology and political project, goes back to the 19th century but it came to fruition on 20th century when antisemitism became a huge problem on Europe. The state of Israel was a "solution" to the "Jewish problem" after two world wars destroyed the Western world abilities to deal with its own notions of religion and identity... (Very complex)
Israel and Hamas, when it comes to territory, are on the same ideological spectrum: terrorism is a weapon and they use it when their imagined existence is threatened. None of them are concerned with human and civil rights. BUT, and it is a very big but, Israel is a state whose idea of itself mirrors European and American constitutional democracies. Historical guilt plays a big role on USA and Europe relationship to Israel.
[...]
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Nov 4, 2023 19:51:48 GMT
I figure I'd create this to provide a safe space to talk about this nightmare. There's soooo much to say about it. My first question is what the hell did Hamas think they would achieve from this? They must have known the reaction would be brutal. It's a prime opportunity for Israel to take over the Gaza Strip and get rid off Palestinians once and for all. The second question is how did such an attack happen by surprise? I would have thought Israel had better intelligence agency? These two things just bug me to no end. What do any of these groups think they are going to achieve beyond "the destruction of Israel" (TM) that they've wanted for as long as they've existed. They're never going to get it with anything less than a mass invasion from the Arab states around them that I don't think they'd ever get away with because I think it's an open secret at this point that Israel has nukes, and I have no doubt they'd use them. They knew what the reaction would be, which is why they did it: to foment distrust and hatred of Israel and Palestinians for another generation. As for Israel getting rid of the Palestinians, fast with a "war" or slow with a slowly tightening noose of settlements, that's always been the goal. Israel was caught off-guard because Bibi was too busy trying to install his own brand of authoritarianism by upending Israel's judiciary. They just weren't paying attention. And, while it wouldn't shock me if Trump fed specific intel to Hamas, I have seen nothing so far that suggests he did. I haven't seen anything that suggests that Hamas had more information than they could have gleaned from just watching how security works over years and seeing where the gaps are so you could exploit them. That's what they did on the ground, and, when it came to Iron Dome, it was simply a matter of stockpiling rockets for months and overwhelming the system.
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Post by nombrecomun on Nov 4, 2023 22:58:10 GMT
They knew what the reaction would be, which is why they did it: to foment distrust and hatred of Israel and Palestinians for another generation. Yeah.....that makes sense. This stirs up the ant hill. It has the probability of indoctrinating and radicalizing current and future generations for both groups. Ughhhh.....
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Post by Garak Nephew on Nov 5, 2023 2:55:12 GMT
Israel was caught off-guard because Bibi was too busy trying to install his own brand of authoritarianism by upending Israel's judiciary. They just weren't paying attention. Yes. And this judiciary overhauled was the result of Netanyahu alliance with far right elements on Israel AND a tactic aimed to avoid his own problems with the law for corruption.
Very volatile situation.
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Nov 5, 2023 3:21:05 GMT
Israel was caught off-guard because Bibi was too busy trying to install his own brand of authoritarianism by upending Israel's judiciary. They just weren't paying attention. Yes. And this judiciary overhauled was the result of Netanyahu alliance with far right elements on Israel AND a tactic aimed to avoid his own problems with the law for corruption.
Very volatile situation.
Particularly when we're already at a point where 80% of Israelis blame him and want him gone.
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