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Post by SherlockHolmes on Jan 12, 2023 16:31:21 GMT
I won't blame anyone if you want to move this to the fire caves, but since its TOS and has to do with TOS characters, I figure I would try it here.
I was watching The Original Series the other day, and I came to realize...every time that McCoy insults Spock, he insults him with what I would think should be derogatory insults. "YOU POINTY EARED" you "GREEN BLOODED" etc. In fact it seems Kirk and company keeps making notes on him being a Vulcan.
Would You all say they're being...well...racist? I mean Would you go up to a person of Color and insult them by pointing out a feature unique to their race? Just a thought I had...
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Jan 12, 2023 18:27:20 GMT
At first blush, it's absolutely racist. It's certainly bigoted and should be frowned upon, but it's folksy, charming McCoy.
That said, it's clear that McCoy and Spock have genuine affection for one another, so I'm willing to chalk it up to Spock accepting it as something akin to ribbing, especially since McCoy limits the behavior to Spock. (Ex: he doesn't call T'Pau a hobgoblin)
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Post by Tupperfan on Jan 12, 2023 22:17:26 GMT
I tend to agree with Prom. It's definitely bigoted, but it seems to be indeed some personal ribbing between the two of them.
It would already be quite questionable in most workplace settings, though (at least in North America) .
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Jan 12, 2023 22:36:13 GMT
I tend to agree with Prom. It's definitely bigoted, but it seems to be indeed some personal ribbing between the two of them. It would already be quite questionable in most workplace settings, though (at least in North America) . Appalling when you put it against a supposedly "enlightened" 23rd century. |
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Post by SherlockHolmes on Jan 12, 2023 23:23:13 GMT
I tend to agree with Prom. It's definitely bigoted, but it seems to be indeed some personal ribbing between the two of them. It would already be quite questionable in most workplace settings, though (at least in North America) . Appalling when you put it against a supposedly "enlightened" 23rd century. Exactly, you hit the nail on the head. That was what I was trying to convey. |
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Jan 13, 2023 5:24:59 GMT
I tend to agree with Prom. It's definitely bigoted, but it seems to be indeed some personal ribbing between the two of them. It would already be quite questionable in most workplace settings, though (at least in North America) . Appalling when you put it against a supposedly "enlightened" 23rd century. I love McCoy, but yeah; his racist jabs at Spock (and no other Vulcans) are super-racist. Almost shockingly so, to 21st century ears. However, it's offset by McCoy's deep love for Spock (see: his 'confession' to an unconscious Spock in TSFS); he'd clearly trade his life for Spock's in a heartbeat. His racist jabs remind me of the joking barbs offered by a kid harboring a secret crush on a classmate. Spock & McCoy Relationship Status: It's Complicated. |
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Post by Tupperfan on Jan 13, 2023 14:37:04 GMT
Spock & McCoy Relationship Status: It's Complicated.Star Trek III crank the complication level to 11, to say the least...
But to go back to McCoy's bigotry: In the Trek setting - especially given that it's supposed to be a more enlightened 23rd century (one where women sometimes can't be ship captains) - I guess it could be explained as an accepted Vulcan habit, to test one's emotional response. Maybe teasing and banter among friends is totally Vulcan, even in a work environment?
I feel like it happened in Carbon Creek, although the definition of "work environment" would be stretched. And one could argue the Kid-Spock's bullying scene in ST09 shows that aspect of Vulcan culture, even though it's clearly portrayed as a bunch of brats bullying someone they perceive as simply different (IDIC indeed).
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Jan 13, 2023 15:10:49 GMT
Spock & McCoy Relationship Status: It's Complicated.Star Trek III crank the complication level to 11, to say the least... But to go back to McCoy's bigotry: In the Trek setting - especially given that it's supposed to be a more enlightened 23rd century (one where women sometimes can't be ship captains) - I guess it could be explained as an accepted Vulcan habit, to test one's emotional response. Maybe teasing and banter among friends is totally Vulcan, even in a work environment?
I feel like it happened in Carbon Creek, although the definition of "work environment" would be stretched. And one could argue the Kid-Spock's bullying scene in ST09 shows that aspect of Vulcan culture, even though it's clearly portrayed as a bunch of brats bullying someone they perceive as simply different (IDIC indeed).
Yeah, I hadn't considered that aspect of it for Spock. Vulcan culture allows for it and he certainly got more than his share. On one hand, that makes McCoy's behavior look even worse. On the other? Maybe there's some psychological drivers at play where Spock was sort of...used to it anyway, coupled with the fact that he knows that mcCoy doesn't actually mean it lets him just take it as a more or less good-natured barb because he knows the difference, knows McCoy, and thinks McCoy is more human (for good and ill) than most humans anyway. Complicated indeed. |
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Post by scenario on Jan 14, 2023 0:50:09 GMT
TOS is a product of the 60s. I 'm old enough to have seen TOS in its original run but it was on after my bedtime.
Men insulting each to show affection was the norm of the time. If McCoy didn't like Spock he would not have insulted him. Insults as a form of affection was especially common in a macho military environment. TOS was filmed 20 years after WWII. I'm sure the macho mentality was common among some of the writers. Men called their wives, the old battle axe and such.
I find old shows interested because they show people attitudes at the time. Some things in old shows that are now offensive are interesting if looked at clinically.
In the comedy show the Honeymooners, the lead character threatened to hit his wife all the time. This was acceptable then because it was clear he'd never do it and because violence in a marriage was considered normal and healthy by most Americans back then as long as it wasn't taken too far. Men were seriously told they should spank their wives if they got out of line.
I'm sure the newer ST shows will suffer the same fate when they are pushing 60. NG looks strange to me because there are no gay characters even as guest stars. The show Barney Miller was on 10 years earlier had regular appearances by gay characters. Why not a progressive show like ST?
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Jan 14, 2023 16:36:31 GMT
TOS is a product of the 60s. I 'm old enough to have seen TOS in its original run but it was on after my bedtime. Men insulting each to show affection was the norm of the time. If McCoy didn't like Spock he would not have insulted him. Insults as a form of affection was especially common in a macho military environment. TOS was filmed 20 years after WWII. I'm sure the macho mentality was common among some of the writers. Men called their wives, the old battle axe and such. I find old shows interested because they show people attitudes at the time. Some things in old shows that are now offensive are interesting if looked at clinically. In the comedy show the Honeymooners, the lead character threatened to hit his wife all the time. This was acceptable then because it was clear he'd never do it and because violence in a marriage was considered normal and healthy by most Americans back then as long as it wasn't taken too far. Men were seriously told they should spank their wives if they got out of line. I'm sure the newer ST shows will suffer the same fate when they are pushing 60. NG looks strange to me because there are no gay characters even as guest stars. The show Barney Miller was on 10 years earlier had regular appearances by gay characters. Why not a progressive show like ST?  |
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Post by Yorick on Jan 14, 2023 22:40:23 GMT
I'm sure the newer ST shows will suffer the same fate when they are pushing 60. NG looks strange to me because there are no gay characters even as guest stars. The show Barney Miller was on 10 years earlier had regular appearances by gay characters. Why not a progressive show like ST? I was always a little disappointed with TNG as it was on at a time that was post Hill Street Blues and St Elsewhere, which I was blown away by in terms of writing and style (and the latter saved my life - but that’s a story for another time). Of course, if David Gerrold and Melinda Snodgrass are to be taken at their word, the writers did try to be edgier but were stymied by TPTB. So it goes. |
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Post by scenario on Jan 15, 2023 3:27:47 GMT
I was always a little disappointed with TNG as it was on at a time that was post Hill Street Blues and St Elsewhere, which I was blown away by in terms of writing and style (and the latter saved my life - but that’s a story for another time). Of course, if David Gerrold and Melinda Snodgrass are to be taken at their word, the writers did try to be edgier but were stymied by TPTB. So it goes. TNG was syndicated. Individual TV stations had to buy it. Stations fought to get affiliated to a network. If a few places or people didn't like a show on a network, the network isn't in trouble. There were people in the bible belt who hated TOS because Spock looked to much like the devil. TNG couldn't afford to have big parts of the US drop the show. |
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Post by Yorick on Jan 15, 2023 9:20:20 GMT
It’s a shame if true. I recall decades later catching up with the syndicated seasons of The Paper Chase (picked up after network cancellation several years prior and revived) and it had swearing and a lot of apparent freedom to tell its stories.
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Post by RobinBland on Jan 16, 2023 0:09:41 GMT
One of the pleasures of watching old TOS episodes - and I've been watching quite a few of late - is that I can put myself inside the state of mind I had as a child. I loved Spock when I was a kid, but I also loved McCoy and I always took it that McCoy wouldn't pay so much attention to Spock if he didn't actually really like him. He was just a massive curmudgeon (although I didn't know that word as a kid. I just knew a lot of adults like McCoy). Even watching without my child's eye rose-colored specs, there's something in DeForest Kelley's performance that never fails to be absolutely engaging, with an underlying warmth, as irascible as he gets, as irritated as Spock makes him. There's actually a single occasion where it's weird (and in an ep I haven't rewatched recently so forgive me if I'm misremembering) but it's For The World is Hollow and I Have Touched The Sky, when Spock helps McCoy and shows concern when the latter is found to have a life-threatening illness. McCoy is completely freaked out by it. It's like it's never occurred to him that Spock actually respects him. I don't think you can really explain any of this away by modern standards: McCoy's language is racist. I'd be appalled if I heard someone having a go at another person the way McCoy does. Whether that makes him a racist in terms of a pattern and deeper behavior - well, as borne out by his actions over time, there's more to this than meets the eye. By modern standards, it's inexcusable - "language is violence" - yet Spock always maintains he has no emotions to offend. Spock's character has been rewritten and added to so much over the years it's tough to believe that's the case. (Particularly on ST: SNW, if you believe that's a prequel that takes place in the same universe - I have trouble doing so.) Maybe McCoy knows this? (His treatment of Spock is still inexcusable to modern ears.) Yet, somehow, it all sort of makes sense within the context of the show. Perhaps there's a part of me that knows it was all made in the unenlightened 1960s.  McCoy's affection for Spock is actually a deeply weird relationship, made absolutely so by ST III. Spock trusts McCoy more than anyone else present (Scotty was present too) to look after his katra. Logically, surely Scotty would be a better choice? An engineer? "You did it to get back at me for all those arguments you lost." That line of McCoy's still makes me laugh, 'cause we know Spock won most of 'em. |
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Post by scenario on Jan 16, 2023 1:58:44 GMT
One of the pleasures of watching old TOS episodes - and I've been watching quite a few of late - is that I can put myself inside the state of mind I had as a child. I loved Spock when I was a kid, but I also loved McCoy and I always took it that McCoy wouldn't pay so much attention to Spock if he didn't actually really like him. He was just a massive curmudgeon (although I didn't know that word as a kid. I just knew a lot of adults like McCoy). Even watching without my child's eye rose-colored specs, there's something in DeForest Kelley's performance that never fails to be absolutely engaging, with an underlying warmth, as irascible as he gets, as irritated as Spock makes him. There's actually a single occasion where it's weird (and in an ep I haven't rewatched recently so forgive me if I'm misremembering) but it's For The World is Hollow and I Have Touched The Sky, when Spock helps McCoy and shows concern when the latter is found to have a life-threatening illness. McCoy is completely freaked out by it. It's like it's never occurred to him that Spock actually respects him. I don't think you can really explain any of this away by modern standards: McCoy's language is racist. I'd be appalled if I heard someone having a go at another person the way McCoy does. Whether that makes him a racist in terms of a pattern and deeper behavior - well, as borne out by his actions over time, there's more to this than meets the eye. By modern standards, it's inexcusable - "language is violence" - yet Spock always maintains he has no emotions to offend. Spock's character has been rewritten and added to so much over the years it's tough to believe that's the case. (Particularly on ST: SNW, if you believe that's a prequel that takes place in the same universe - I have trouble doing so.) Maybe McCoy knows this? (His treatment of Spock is still inexcusable to modern ears.) Yet, somehow, it all sort of makes sense within the context of the show. Perhaps there's a part of me that knows it was all made in the unenlightened 1960s. McCoy's affection for Spock is actually a deeply weird relationship, made absolutely so by ST III. Spock trusts McCoy more than anyone else present (Scotty was present too) to look after his katra. Logically, surely Scotty would be a better choice? An engineer? "You did it to get back at me for all those arguments you lost." That line of McCoy's still makes me laugh, 'cause we know Spock won most of 'em. I agree with you in that if you were around when TOS first aired, you knew someone like McCoy. McCoy's a southerner. Deforest was born in 1920. My grandparents were born in Texas about 10 years before him. I visited them as a kid. As a kid from New England it felt strange hearing people saying some appalling things affectionately to each other. The worlds a different place now. |
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Post by ashleytinger on Jan 24, 2023 23:52:21 GMT
I've always looked at Spock and McCoy as an amped up version of the guys I grew up with and they would absolutely try to rile the hell out of each other. While yes, McCoy's attacks could come across as bigoted, Spock dishes out to McCoy just as much but it's a lot more enlightened in his insults hurled at the good doctor.
Not saying it's right, just saying it reminds me of the guys I grew up around.
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Post by nombrecomun on Jan 25, 2023 2:17:57 GMT
I've always looked at Spock and McCoy as an amped up version of the guys I grew up with and they would absolutely try to rile the hell out of each other. While yes, McCoy's attacks could come across as bigoted, Spock dishes out to McCoy just as much but it's a lot more enlightened in his insults hurled at the good doctor. Not saying it's right, just saying it reminds me of the guys I grew up around. Agreed. In the end, that show was a reflection of its time, just like how STD reflects aspects of our time today. |
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Post by RobinBland on Jan 26, 2023 0:06:00 GMT
The USA - well, the western world, to an extent - has always had a macho self-image. In the 1960s, if men interacted with each other in a sensitive way, a concerned way, it was, if not off-limits, then frowned upon. No man wanted to be seen as "weak" or, worse, effeminate. You could be warm, you could be friendly, you could be irascible, you could be vile. Anything was pretty much acceptable, but not anything that was deemed a feminine trait in any way, and certainly not "vulnerable."
The male characterisations of TOS subscribe to male stereotypes of the period, even as they kick against them. Spock is an archetypal geek, as we'd recognise one in modern society. His behaviour is something seen all the time nowadays, but back in the 1960s, McCoy and Kirk were the norms. Is it any wonder Spock became so popular? Not only did he represent the world's introverted, offbeat and otherwise, he was sexy with it. he appealed to anyone who had to hide their otherness, and those who couldn't or wouldn't.
The character of Spock as played by Leonard Nimoy went a huge way, over decades, to normalising geek behavior and opening otherwise closed mindsets to "otherness."
The character of McCoy, set against this, no doubt helped. McCoy's behavior may be questionable by modern standards, but we shouldn't forget that, also visible, was his friendship and affection for Spock. He accepted Spock, and was very loyal towards him, behaviors that culminated in the movies Star Treks III and IV.
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I am so sorry...