|
|
Post by Prometheus59650 on Jul 24, 2023 23:39:09 GMT
Here.
|
|
|
|
Post by Garak Nephew on Jul 27, 2023 13:19:33 GMT
Great episode! My vote is cast to Chapel as best character of SNW. Jess Bush imbues her performance with such dramatic credibility. I love her. And the shared past with M'Benga is really well put together.
On this episode I found thematic echoes with DS9 "Duet"; the scars left by wars, the ethical conundrums conflict creates and the criminals that sometimes want to morally profit from it.
Top Trek!
|
|
|
|
Post by scenario on Jul 27, 2023 20:27:14 GMT
Superb. Allegorical ST at its best.
|
|
|
|
Post by Yorick on Jul 28, 2023 8:57:11 GMT
Excellent meaningful story, moral dilemmas, strong characters and moments performed with moving conviction. And…
SPOILER….
CLINT HOWARD!!!!
I hoped you relished him as much as I.
|
|
|
|
Post by nombrecomun on Jul 28, 2023 18:15:01 GMT
Good ep! A total swing of the pendulum from the last one. For a moment I forgot I was watching Star Trek. Gritty. Not that I want Trek to necessarily be visceral in this manner.
The acting was great. Babs Olusanmokun is such a presence on screen. I like his relatively very quiet delivery but he can also be explosive as we saw in Dune. It was also great to see why it is that Chapel and M'Benga have a close relationship. Such a shared experience would do that.
I enjoyed the twist ending but for some reason the rest from there on didn't ring properly to me. I feel like Captain Pike has been sleepwalking in these last couple of eps. #1 jumps in to correct Ortegas at dinner. Pike didn't seem to care. There should be some repercussion to M'Benga's behaviour but Pike seems satisfied with the account. Such an emotionally compromised officer would at least be suspended from duties. A doctor killing an ambassador? Maybe the fallout from this may be explored in eps/seasons yet to come but it feels too big to dismiss by the end of the ep.
|
|
|
|
Post by scenario on Jul 28, 2023 19:03:00 GMT
Good ep! A total swing of the pendulum from the last one. For a moment I forgot I was watching Star Trek. Gritty. Not that I want Trek to necessarily be visceral in this manner. The acting was great. Babs Olusanmokun is such a presence on screen. I like his relatively very quiet delivery but he can also be explosive as we saw in Dune. It was also great to see why it is that Chapel and M'Benga have a close relationship. Such a shared experience would do that. I enjoyed the twist ending but for some reason the rest from there on didn't ring properly to me. I feel like Captain Pike has been sleepwalking in these last couple of eps. #1 jumps in to correct Ortegas at dinner. Pike didn't seem to care. There should be some repercussion to M'Benga's behaviour but Pike seems satisfied with the account. Such an emotionally compromised officer would at least be suspended from duties. A doctor killing an ambassador? Maybe the fallout from this may be explored in eps/seasons yet to come but it feels too big to dismiss by the end of the ep. As James T Kirk said "Let them die." At this point in history, pretty much everyone looks at Klingons as ruthless, bloodthirsty barbarians. The idea that a Klingon would lose his temper and try to kill someone is believable or a dishonored Klingon killing himself in shame. The Klingon Empire is glad he's dead. Most of the people in charge now were in charge during the war and are glad he's dead. Few people would stand up for a Klingon. The prejudice (deserved for the most part) in this era is pretty extreme. |
|
|
|
Post by nombrecomun on Jul 29, 2023 0:18:38 GMT
Good ep! A total swing of the pendulum from the last one. For a moment I forgot I was watching Star Trek. Gritty. Not that I want Trek to necessarily be visceral in this manner. The acting was great. Babs Olusanmokun is such a presence on screen. I like his relatively very quiet delivery but he can also be explosive as we saw in Dune. It was also great to see why it is that Chapel and M'Benga have a close relationship. Such a shared experience would do that. I enjoyed the twist ending but for some reason the rest from there on didn't ring properly to me. I feel like Captain Pike has been sleepwalking in these last couple of eps. #1 jumps in to correct Ortegas at dinner. Pike didn't seem to care. There should be some repercussion to M'Benga's behaviour but Pike seems satisfied with the account. Such an emotionally compromised officer would at least be suspended from duties. A doctor killing an ambassador? Maybe the fallout from this may be explored in eps/seasons yet to come but it feels too big to dismiss by the end of the ep. As James T Kirk said "Let them die." At this point in history, pretty much everyone looks at Klingons as ruthless, bloodthirsty barbarians. The idea that a Klingon would lose his temper and try to kill someone is believable or a dishonored Klingon killing himself in shame. The Klingon Empire is glad he's dead. Most of the people in charge now were in charge during the war and are glad he's dead. Few people would stand up for a Klingon. The prejudice (deserved for the most part) in this era is pretty extreme. No disagreement. I can see that it would be easy to sell that story of what happened in Sick Bay given who the Klingons are and that this ambassador had a horrifying reputation. My issue is with M'benga. That's a seriously troubled character. It's fantastic from a dramatic perspective but he's a hell of a messed up dude. |
|
|
|
Post by scenario on Jul 29, 2023 1:08:15 GMT
As James T Kirk said "Let them die." At this point in history, pretty much everyone looks at Klingons as ruthless, bloodthirsty barbarians. The idea that a Klingon would lose his temper and try to kill someone is believable or a dishonored Klingon killing himself in shame. The Klingon Empire is glad he's dead. Most of the people in charge now were in charge during the war and are glad he's dead. Few people would stand up for a Klingon. The prejudice (deserved for the most part) in this era is pretty extreme. No disagreement. I can see that it would be easy to sell that story of what happened in Sick Bay given who the Klingons are and that this ambassador had a horrifying reputation. My issue is with M'benga. That's a seriously troubled character. It's fantastic from a dramatic perspective but he's a hell of a messed up dude. He's a product of war. I'm sure this isn't the last story about him. |
|
|
|
Post by RobinBland on Jul 29, 2023 4:11:10 GMT
Holy $#!t.
M'Benga!
Too tired to write coherent thoughts now, but that was an excellent episode. In terms of the close examination of the travails of war veterans, this was deep-cut stuff. No pun intended.
|
|
|
|
Post by Garak Nephew on Jul 29, 2023 18:10:38 GMT
As it is often the case, TOR keep putting up the good stuff. Here is a review from a frequent collaborator on TOR and Star Trek novelist, Keith DeCandido. Food for thought.
|
|
|
|
Post by Yorick on Jul 29, 2023 21:27:18 GMT
It was such a powerful episode and everything that is Star Trek. I was so wary going in, with the LD crossover behind and and a musical episode ahead. I’m very glad I skipped the crossover. I think now that if I watched the musical, my brain will jump out of my skull and hide in the corner behind the cat’s bed.
|
|
|
|
Post by ashleytinger on Jul 31, 2023 0:30:05 GMT
Holy.... That was amazing.
M'Benga and Chapel.. just wow.
|
|
|
|
Post by scenario on Jul 31, 2023 2:00:09 GMT
In a way, this episode does explain TOS Chapel vs SNW Chapel. The Prime line has drifted since 1966. There was no Klingon war in Prime1966. There was in Prime 2023. The war changed her. 1966 Chapel either was more timid to start with or got timid by her experiences. Chapel's experiences in the war fundamentally changed who she was. I'd kind of like to see a flashback to young Chapel acting like TOS Chapel.
|
|
|
|
Post by Garak Nephew on Jul 31, 2023 23:24:45 GMT
In a way, this episode does explain TOS Chapel vs SNW Chapel. The Prime line has drifted since 1966. There was no Klingon war in Prime1966. There was in Prime 2023. The war changed her. 1966 Chapel either was more timid to start with or got timid by her experiences. Chapel's experiences in the war fundamentally changed who she was. I'd kind of like to see a flashback to young Chapel acting like TOS Chapel. I like this theory. But it need to account for changes in the timeline. How far would you go away from TOS to still be considered Trek? A war is a HUGE event! They must show that the war had multiple hit that rippled into the continuum. They must show that with the characters, of course, so Chapel, Spock, Uhura and Pike would be changing(little tweaks in their characters) but NOT too much because they should be an echo (a mirror?) from the originals. That could be a really great trip and I hope they take it. I will also be here with them, flying. |
|
|
|
Post by scenario on Aug 1, 2023 1:30:28 GMT
The time police lady pretty much said that the Federation must continue to exist and all the people important to that must survive.
They don't worry about the details because they aren't gods and can't fix everything. Some time traveler changed something. Maybe Michael wasn't in Prime1966 but her being there and the whole Klingon war fixed something even worse.
The only way to really show it all is to have a star trek time war show or movie and I really don't like that. I just assume that lots of details changed but the big picture stayed the same.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sehlat Vie on Aug 1, 2023 2:18:18 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by nombrecomun on Aug 1, 2023 6:37:23 GMT
Fantastic review and you hit upon what I did find uncomfortable about the ep. I mentioned it above and I'll repeat it again: M'benga is one hell of a messed up character. We only get that at the very end. I didn't like the very end of it, after the murder, but I couldn't find the words. You said it properly: it's not just M'Benga but also Chapel who's in on it as well. That just didn't set right with me but I couldn't pinpoint it. We leave the ep with M'Benga seemingly absolved of murder as well as complicit Chapel. That's not Star Trek. I wholeheartedly agree with you about the notion that nuTrek character's seem to be defined by trauma. I'm not sure what it is about American 20 - 30somethings that this seems to resonate with(thinking that this is age demographic this series aims for). As you say, can't a character just be interesting? Must they be interesting because they had something disastrous in their upbringing? What does that say about us? |
|
|
|
Post by ashleytinger on Aug 1, 2023 11:59:24 GMT
The thing is, we don't see M'Benga pick up the blade. In fact I'm almost certain the other guy went for it.
But that's the other interesting part, you all look at it as murder, but M'Benga told him multiple times to get away from him and then the dude began physical contact after he'd said no multiple times and to leave him be. It escalated and the Klingon ended up dead.
I don't think M'Benga killed him. I think it became self-defense because the Klingon would not take no for an answer and pushing someone who obviously despises you to that point for atrocities you committed as well as a TON of obvious PTSD and the fact that M'Benga had 'carried out the mission' or tried, is not a good place to be.
|
|
|
|
Post by Prometheus59650 on Aug 1, 2023 14:14:33 GMT
The thing is, we don't see M'Benga pick up the blade. In fact I'm almost certain the other guy went for it. But that's the other interesting part, you all look at it as murder, but M'Benga told him multiple times to get away from him and then the dude began physical contact after he'd said no multiple times and to leave him be. It escalated and the Klingon ended up dead. I don't think M'Benga killed him. I think it became self-defense because the Klingon would not take no for an answer and pushing someone who obviously despises you to that point for atrocities you committed as well as a TON of obvious PTSD and the fact that M'Benga had 'carried out the mission' or tried, is not a good place to be. All of this. The ambiguity is deliberate. The fact of the matter is that M'Benga has the history he has that directly stems from the actions of General D'Bloodbath Chi'ldkillah and the Dear General is not a nice man. He's not a nice man and there's no real proof he's any sort of "reformed" just because he knows all the words the Federation wants to hear. I'm not sure how you "reform" after ordering the butchering of children (i.e. "I herded Jews into ovens but, c'mon, it was war, amirite? And I do feel pretty depressed about it. But now I'm about peace and wuv.") Nope. This is where we are when they meet in Sickbay and M'Benga BEGS Chi'ldkillah to leave him be. But he doesn't. He doesn't, if he soooooooooo wants to help,' just accept that he's not helping, nod, say, "You may hate me and I get that, but we both know I'm doing good work here. Please don't ruin that...for the sake of both our peoples." and walk out. Not only doesn't he walk out he lays hands on M'Benga. He lays hands on the only guy that knows and can prove he's a liar in front of the weapon that can prove he's a liar. Then M'Benga says something to the effect of "Don't." He went for that blade. Given all that, I am untroubled by Chi'ldkillah's death. |
|
|
|
Post by Garak Nephew on Aug 1, 2023 14:14:41 GMT
I rewatch it and I must say that it is a fantastic episode. Really deep! I agree with Ashley above in the appreciation of the ambiguity on the crucial scene but not on the conclusion, I believe M'Benga willingly killed Rah. I think this scene have the potential of becoming Trek "Han shot first moment", with sides being drawn. Well, I am choosing mine now: M'Benga killed Rah.
I am also drawing another meta line if you will, this episode is firmly grounded on Trek lore. They are twisting our souls a little bit to make us squirm like Regulan worms, but the spirit remains Trek. The core of the episode I believe is this line by Chapel, who is a great character on its way to legendary, "War makes sense if you been there, but it will never make sense". Also later by M'Benga "[You are] using the blood on my hands to make you a saint." The doctor is really damage by PTSD and his judgement is compromise to the point of make us question how can he remains an active Starfleet officer. "Under the Cloak of War" really cut deep on a Trek episode like "In the Pale Moonlight" but it take us to darker places and that's why is hard to accept it as Trek. But I think the script is dancing around a very thin thread about the scars that war leave. Sisko could still kind of convince himself that Garak takes the burden of the blame for killing Vreenak; Sisko could perform some kind of mental jujitsu and detach himself so not to get crushed by guilt. Kind of... But not M'Benga. M'benga knows. AND he was right. The Federation was mistaken in accepting Rah as representative to start diplomatic relationship with the Klingon empire. Rah is not redeemable; as de didn't expect Kira to throw a welcoming party every time Dukat show to the station.
But there is another darker angle, now dictated to my mind from my Mirror Universe self  . M'Benga also kill Rah because Rah is the ONLY living witness of who actually is the Butcher of J'Gal. Chapel knows but she didn't saw it. That is a sign of how well written this episode is: M'Benga is morally right but the stain of the act have ruined him.
Top Trek! We are going to be talking and disagreeing with this one for years to come.
|
|
|
|
Post by Prometheus59650 on Aug 1, 2023 14:33:19 GMT
I think the sheer brilliance of that scene is that you can be interpreted in any way that you'd like.
|
|
|
|
Post by Garak Nephew on Aug 1, 2023 16:53:52 GMT
Some might object to how Spock is being portrayed -so ambivalent, almost insecure, so hesitant- but I still think the character sound right. When they are engaging Rah on an informal dinner with Pike, Spock says to Chapel "the ally ambassador must have many interesting insights on delicate matters of diplomacy" but the way he says it, with a kind of barely there smirk, is just brilliant. He is right! Spock mind is ON! He is cutting through the layers like a sharp focus surgeon. He didn't say he likes him, or dislikes him. But the situation is insightful. He knows the enemy but his approach is tactical. Spock is ahead. M'Benga and Chapel are just unable to make an assessment like that. When Chapel is distress, Spock engage Rah with discussion on Sun Tzu. This is a very acute pivot. It releases the tension, but also puts Rah on a position of having to bare his mind on the intricacies of war philosophy. Spock is seizing him; he is using intellect to scan Rah's mind. We need Spock in our team.
Also, Ortegas! Her figure stands for all the other soldiers that were lost. I keep loving her more. |
|
|
|
Post by nombrecomun on Aug 1, 2023 17:29:32 GMT
The thing is, we don't see M'Benga pick up the blade. In fact I'm almost certain the other guy went for it. But that's the other interesting part, you all look at it as murder, but M'Benga told him multiple times to get away from him and then the dude began physical contact after he'd said no multiple times and to leave him be. It escalated and the Klingon ended up dead. I don't think M'Benga killed him. I think it became self-defense because the Klingon would not take no for an answer and pushing someone who obviously despises you to that point for atrocities you committed as well as a TON of obvious PTSD and the fact that M'Benga had 'carried out the mission' or tried, is not a good place to be. Absolutely correct. It's vague. Can't tell. The Klingon may have had enough motivation to cover the truth about his past given his new role as 'ambassador/savior'. He had a lot to lose. M'benga did tell him, begged him to leave. Still, as someone else said, it made no sense that M'benga had his blade in sick bay. Had the ambassador visited his quarters instead...that might have made more sense. But I can't see even that as some type of premeditation unless M'benga knew that the ambassador was going to see him in sick bay. I can't remember if there was an appointment. No matter what, my original conclusion still stands: M'benga is one messed up dude. Even when the issue is vague, it doesn't portray Chapel in good light. |
|
|
|
Post by ashleytinger on Aug 1, 2023 17:48:19 GMT
And that's fair. They deliberately shot that scene behind the frosted glass to make us talk about it, I'm sure.
And it's a brilliant move to do so.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sehlat Vie on Aug 1, 2023 23:45:32 GMT
The thing is, we don't see M'Benga pick up the blade. In fact I'm almost certain the other guy went for it. But that's the other interesting part, you all look at it as murder, but M'Benga told him multiple times to get away from him and then the dude began physical contact after he'd said no multiple times and to leave him be. It escalated and the Klingon ended up dead. I don't think M'Benga killed him. I think it became self-defense because the Klingon would not take no for an answer and pushing someone who obviously despises you to that point for atrocities you committed as well as a TON of obvious PTSD and the fact that M'Benga had 'carried out the mission' or tried, is not a good place to be. It's strongly implied he killed him; at least it was for me. The fact that he HAD the knife there in sickbay at all showed intent, at the very least. Why would he have that anywhere near sickbay? |
|
|
|
Post by Sehlat Vie on Aug 1, 2023 23:48:33 GMT
Fantastic review and you hit upon what I did find uncomfortable about the ep. I mentioned it above and I'll repeat it again: M'benga is one hell of a messed up character. We only get that at the very end. I didn't like the very end of it, after the murder, but I couldn't find the words. You said it properly: it's not just M'Benga but also Chapel who's in on it as well. That just didn't set right with me but I couldn't pinpoint it. We leave the ep with M'Benga seemingly absolved of murder as well as complicit Chapel. That's not Star Trek. I wholeheartedly agree with you about the notion that nuTrek character's seem to be defined by trauma. I'm not sure what it is about American 20 - 30somethings that this seems to resonate with(thinking that this is age demographic this series aims for). As you say, can't a character just be interesting? Must they be interesting because they had something disastrous in their upbringing? What does that say about us? I don't mind characters having traumas in their past, of course. Kirk had Tarsus IV in his own past (half the colonists killed right before his 14-year old eyes), but it only came up in ONE episode, and that was it. He didn't need to see him dwell on it every week. It was a part of him, but it didn't define him. |
|
|
|
Post by Yorick on Aug 2, 2023 19:37:32 GMT
Fantastic review and you hit upon what I did find uncomfortable about the ep. I mentioned it above and I'll repeat it again: M'benga is one hell of a messed up character. We only get that at the very end. I didn't like the very end of it, after the murder, but I couldn't find the words. You said it properly: it's not just M'Benga but also Chapel who's in on it as well. That just didn't set right with me but I couldn't pinpoint it. We leave the ep with M'Benga seemingly absolved of murder as well as complicit Chapel. That's not Star Trek. I wholeheartedly agree with you about the notion that nuTrek character's seem to be defined by trauma. I'm not sure what it is about American 20 - 30somethings that this seems to resonate with(thinking that this is age demographic this series aims for). As you say, can't a character just be interesting? Must they be interesting because they had something disastrous in their upbringing? What does that say about us? I don't mind characters having traumas in their past, of course. Kirk had Tarsus IV in his own past (half the colonists killed right before his 14-year old eyes), but it only came up in ONE episode, and that was it. He didn't need to see him dwell on it every week. It was a part of him, but it didn't define him. Hmm. Quite a quandary. Excellent points made but now we have another problem, another paradox. A very powerful, meaningful episode (quintessential Star Trek) but where a character acts in a thoroughly compromised manner and seemingly is absolved (not Star Trek - or starfleet for sure). I find myself accepting the point yet wanting more as it was a powerful drama, by far (for me) the best of the season and coming in time to save me from switching off permanently. I’m setting a course around the musical for this reason. I’m not very Star Trek in this way myself - IDIC and all that. Great discussion, lots to think about. Another sign of a successful Star Trek episode! |
|
. M'Benga also kill Rah because Rah is the ONLY living witness of who actually is the Butcher of J'Gal. Chapel knows but she didn't saw it. That is a sign of how well written this episode is: M'Benga is morally right but the stain of the act have ruined him. 
I am so sorry...
Jul 14, 2024 1:18:27 GMT
I am so sorry...
Jul 14, 2024 1:18:27 GMT