Episode 2.5 "Charades" Discussion Thread

ok, this episode was so much fun. It was funny, there was a great problem to overcome, Ethan Peck is fantastic as Spock. Loved all of it, and Chapel has been fantastic this whole series. And that moment in Spock's quarters at the end? Allow me to fangirl a moment SQUEEEEEEEE

Ok, I think I'm done. So good.

OMG

I loved this episode. It had everything - funny, sad, poignant, cool aliens, loads of great little scenes for the whole ensemble and a fantastic villain. Oh, T’Pril… she was horrible! Bitchy logic delivered with an acid glare. I could really believe it when Amanda said at the end how tough it is for a human to be in love with a Vulcan. And Amanda! She was great! The whole cast was on absolute top form here.

That was some funny $hit. A fantastic comedy episode that really went somewhere. Just huge, huge fun. I don’t think I’ve loved watching Star Trek this much in years. 

A very insightful read. I am impressed particularly by the sections in italics contrasting the story with critical and thematic observations. I was especially interested in the comments relating to how Leonard Nimoy would have approached the script.

It is hard for me to see a pathway from Ethan Peck’s Spock to Leonard Nimoy’s Spock, given the (in my opinion irreconcilable) common timeline. As its own thing in its own universe, no problem at all. But it took until Star Trek VI for Nimoy’s Spock to declare that he had “found himself”. An extraordinary character arc that took him from repeated denials of human emotion via a dash of Vulcan aloofness, through to Kolinar, death and re-birth and finally to balance and appreciation of his humanity, tapping into it freely and without guilt as needed (in the fallout with Valeris). Peck’s Spock seems to already be there. Maybe something is going to happen to cause some kind of PTSD. Something just before his time with Kirk, where we see him much colder and “superior” (“Ah yes, one of your Earth emotions”) to shouting orders (“Damage control report all stations!”) to cracks of suppressed vulnerability (“I’m so— I regret that I can find no other logical alternative”).

This show is its own thing, it’s own multiverse. I wish I could get my brain over there. I miss Star Trek being the show that amazed me with its ideas and writing. And it’s not just nostalgia for the 60s. Better Call Saul had the same effect on me as ST and, say, RDM’s BSG.

Did anyone notice the music when T’Prill entered and when she was getting up Vulcan steam? A hint of “The Ritual” by Gerald Fried?

That’s a really nice touch about the music - missed it, because I was probably laughing. 

I can’t reconcile any of it with TOS, really. They’re different takes on the same characters, and yeah, it is much more character based than the original show was, inasmuch that TOS was conceived as an anthology show of sorts. I’m fine with the emphasis on character in the shorter seasons we get these days, but I know what you mean… there was a purity of intent to present strange SF or sociological ideas back in the day and just explore those. I’m not sure there would ever have been an opportunity for Nimoy to do a show like this, not until the movies anyway (as Sehlat Vie observed). 

@sehlatvie - all good nits though. I wondered about unmixing the mixed race thing. The “divided self” trope is such an old schtick in SF, especially Trek, going all the way back to The Enemy Within. Being something of a mutt myself (though presenting very much as white) and having a mixed race child I can see how it might bother people, but I also feel that Trek is the safe environment in which to examine such concerns. I mean, T’Pril is essentially an old racist. Not so much that she’ll disavow Spock entirely, but enough that she thinks it’s OK to espouse the values she does and make everyone around her’s life a misery. She’s old money, traditional values, a position of utter social privilege that goes entirely unexamined, not even when Spock reveals he’s been human throughout that ceremony. Vulcans are perhaps the most fleshed out of all Trek’s alien races (maybe along with the Klingons) and it’s always interesting to see how “logic” can support all kinds of racist assumptions. Spock and Sarek are the most reflective and open-minded of Vulcans. T’Pril isn’t and I seem to recall T’Pol’s mother was similarly prejudiced. 

Which is getting away from the comedy of it a bit, but points up how good the writing on this episode was. The SF and plot nits you list are spot on, but I was so caught up in the spirit of the episode I bought it all. This one is very high on my list of fave SNW episodes and Peck is giving us a new version of Spock that I never, ever thought I’d enjoy this much. That’s boldy going! 

At this point I'm treating each series like it's own thing but has loose connections to the whole. I think I've brought up the comic book thing before, where you're invested in a team book and then they have another team book that ties in but another writer or artist and while they might have the same characters in the same universe, they don't always mesh well.

And hell in the comics for Star Trek we've had some really WILDLY different artists take on the ships and characters over the years.

I just enjoy it for what it is. I was REALLY nitpicky in my teens through a chunk of my 30s (and yes I've carried some of that over into my Tiny Trek series with the amount of research I put into dates, events, etc), but I just roll with it in what I watch now and enjoy it when it's good. And Strange New Worlds has been oh, so good.

Same. I used to be super-nitpicky and things had to match up. But there are so many authors in so many franchises now; it's impossible they ever will. The "different teams on a comic book" is a great approach. And yeah, ultimately, it comes down to if the story and characters are good. 

I think my only compliant with SNW is that the seasons are too short. But then, I'll take quality over quantity any day. 

It's what I'd more or less adopted as fact many moons ago just because there were too many inconsistencies to wipe away and it's honestly stupid to contemplate the alternative: a story editor (or three) whose job it is to nitpick every script so that it doesn't violate 60 years of lore that has essentially been self-contradictory to one extent or other since TNG.

I'm actually somewhat relieved that someone finally canonized the fact that it's not what you remember and it's not going to be.

Because, I, for one, for instance, do not want this Nurse Chapel to become THAT Nurse Chapel. I think it'd break my heart a little bit.

Great ep. Good humour. It was nice to see Peck break out of his usual character. That must have been awesome for him.

I share the same sentiment others have about how Vulcans are presented. To me, it feels inconsistent. On the one hand logic. On the other, embarrassment about consorting with humans or feelings(key word) of superiority. It feels more like Enterprise's representation of Vulcans.

I'm probably the lone dissenter in not wanting or caring about romantic relationships on Trek. I'm fine with Spock and T'Pring's relationship. Not sure why the Nurse Chapel angle is here. Was that in TOS? I can't remember. All I can think of is that women like that love triangle dynamic(Hunger Games, Twilight, etc....).

I like Chapel but it seems redundant to have 2 medical characters. A lot of this last ep could have been M'Benga. Or just simply not have M'Benga(although I like him too).

I do agree with others that this isn't strictly a precursor to TOS. Spock seems to be in a very different trajectory to what would become TOS Spock. I just can't see how someone in a devoted relationship to T'Pring just jump into bed with Chapel that fast. The feelings where there for sure but Spock, a person who has devoted his life to being a Vulcan, should have shown more constraint. There's drama there too.

Oh well....good ep nevertheless.

Well, she did love him and said outright that she did, and followed that up with small gestures throughout. Given that 60s mentality I'd always assumed that it was thoroughly unrequited. In the series she absolutely came off as a woman that would be fine pining away for someone gone or otherwise unattainable. Somehow vainly hoping that they'd reciprocate, but ultimately unsure of what she'd do if they did.

There were things Majel liked about her, but she also saw Chapel as pretty weak.

Hey guys, what do you think about that?

Pretty sure T'Pring won't see it that way, but, we'll see.

Or it just ends up adding to the dynamic if she finds Ston on her break.

T'Pring and Spock were engaged as children. I see them as close childhood friends. They both like each other and would make an excellent couple but living among Humans is changing Spock. T'Pring can see it but still wants to give their marriage a try. The fact that her mother hates Spock pushes her towards him. Vulcan tradition pushes her towards him. But T'Pring can see that  Spock really cares for Chapel. 

Her taking a break is her telling Spock make up your freaking mind. Me or her. If you choose her, you publicly announce the break up and take the blame. You don't have to live here, I do.

When he tells Chapel that T'Pring wanted to take a break, Chapel's conscious is clear. She wanted him badly and everyone knew it but she'd done her best not to do anything about it. But now he's a free man so she goes for it. 

The opposite of love isn't hate, its apathy. By the time of TOS, T'Pring doesn't care if Spock is alive or dead. He's been stringing her along for years and won't just formally break the engagement she's now stuck with so she can have peace. That's why I like the idea of Spock erasing his love of Chapel from his mind. By the time of TOS he doesn't even realize the wrong he's done to T'Pring.

Pretty much.
It all diverged around "First Contact."