Episode 2.3 "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and..." Discussion Thread

I'm not all the way through the episode, but Wesley's Kirk has grown on me a lot.

Was it as good as last week, no.

But with the pacing and the connection between Kirk and La'an and some of the bits like stealing clothes in 2023 over 1930, they were really trying to throw "City" vibes out there and...it wasn't a complete fail for me as far as that went. Ending was solid. I'd give it a 7.

As far as Khan goes, the Romulan makes the point that the universe pushes back against all attempts to end the Federation and Khan seems to be an integral part of that. In Marvel's "What if...?" on Disney+, Strange ends up destroying the universe trying to save Christine Palmer. No matter what he tries, he can't do it, so he starts absorbing the power of other Strange's in other universes. He finally does it, but saving her causes everything in his universe to implode. She HAS to die.

It's at least alluded to in this story that Khan HAS to happen in order for humanity to find its way to enlightenment.

One other thought. There's clearly a temporal war going on. The powers that be insist that this is the prime timeline. But with agents popping in all the time things are bound to change. What if the Temporal agency can't keep everything exactly the same? So in the 60 years since TOS the prime Timeline has been slowly drifting. Its still within the parameters that the Temporal time agency set so its still prime but slightly different. If they tried to switch it back, they'd make it worse.

The Temporal time agency might not even realize its changed.

Pelia is a woman whose lived thousands of years. Many cultures do not approve of strong women so she developed a ditsy persona as camouflage.

What is stealing? Requiem for Methuselah. "I am Brahms... da Vinci... Solomon, Alexander, Lazarus, Methuselah... A hundred other names you do not know."

She has to keep a low profile but what kinds of skills could you learn in thousands of years.

She's the painter but she gave them to someone else to sell and he got famous. When the local cops found out that a local woman had expensive paintings they took them and sold them. They were stolen from her. She stole them back.

(Repost from musingsofamiddleagedgeek.blog)

People are saying this, that there is chemistry between them, but in truth I didn't feel a thing. Maybe is my own prejudices against Kirk, that even a tone down Kirk like Wesley's one, is still too "kirky" for me. So aggressively self-centered, so annoyingly and quietly condescendig; he seems like being "playing along" with her, like "let see where this weird chick is going" kind of guy. Wesley play's it detach, like not really believing her but going for the ride. SNW chemistry is all-in on Spock-Chapel thing, those two are really setting the screen on fire.  

I really enjoyed this episode. Perhaps it’s no time travel classic - there are a few plot conveniences like Kirk or Sera trotting out info as and when it services the plot - but I found it really entertaining and it’s anchored by a very strong central performance from Christina Chong. I liked La’an more and more as last season progressed, but I was completely disarmed and charmed by Chong’s performance in this episode, as we see her go through a spectrum of moods and emotions. I love this crew, but Chong’s La’an has suddenly taken the lead as a clear fave. 

Okay, I’m a sucker for a screwball romance (especially when shod in Star Trek time travel boots), and thought this ep both played with the tropes well and gave us something new. At first I was wary that we were being re-introduced to the temporal cold war from Enterprise, but no, this is both a tidy-up exercise for Trek lore, a captivating romp and a great character showcase. 

Which brings us to Kirk. I have another friend (not on this board) who just can’t get past Paul Wesley as Kirk and for him the new guy just spoiled the episode. Me, I was lukewarm towards him in last season’s finalé and this time decided to consciously turn off any expectations. Yet, like Spock, it’s impossible not to compare him in the role with the titans who have inhabited it before, and Wesley throws in some nice, subtle nods to former Kirks (“My God,”) without being slavish. That said, I feel like he could be a totally different character to both Jim Kirks we’ve seen before… (and here I go making comparisons; sorry Paul). I recall feeling that Chris Pine was extremely convincing as a young, brash Kirk in ST ‘09 and by the time of Beyond he had so grown into the role I accepted him completely. There’s something about that thick-necked machismo coupled with a humane, intellectual and tactical brilliance that Shatner at his best portrayed brilliantly, and Pine got ahold of that and made it utterly his own while investing it with his own considerable charm.  

I really liked this alternate version Wesley gave us (yet another one) - that playful smartass quality that disguises the vulnerabilities and humanity, the braggadocio when confronted with a problem that he meets head-on with humor and ideas. The chess playing scene was almost too much - “YES, THIS IS KIRK! HE CAN BEAT SPOCK AT 3D CHESS!” - but it did make me laugh when Wesley pulled that winsome, cheesy smile as he won. The writers want us to believe and accept that Kirk is Kirk whatever timeline he’s from and whomever is playing him. Except… dammit, he doesn’t seem like Kirk to me, even though they’ve woven in all this familiar character detail. 

I found myself really liking Paul Wesley as a performer, and his great chemistry with Christina Chong’s La’an, but by the time the episode ended I still hadn’t quite bought him as Jim Kirk. I don’t know what it is - is he too lanky, too wide-eyed, too pretty, less visibly egotistical than the versions we’ve seen before? Hmmm, y’know, it might be that. At all times, both Shatner and Pine’s versions of the character are propelled by an underlying cockiness that Wesley chooses not to foreground, and I do wonder if this was a directorial or performative choice. Maybe when we get SNW’s version of Lt. Kirk proper, we’ll get some more of that braggadocio that will really convince me this is the same guy.   

I’d give Christine Chong 10/10 for this one and maybe a 7/10 overall. It was a very different flavor from last week’s outstanding courtroom drama, but it seemed like a strong third episode to me, and I’m actually looking forward to seeing Wesley’s next turn as Kirk. Plaudits to Christina Chong and writer David Reed and direction by Amanda Row for getting all the moods exactly right.


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A final thought: you know what I miss? Onscreen episode titles. Trek always had them back in the day and I don’t see why the modern era had to dispense with them just to follow the TV herd. Bring ‘em back, I say. 

I'm thinking maybe we just need more swagger? But Wesley's clearly a very intelligent and considered performer, so maybe we get that, further down the line. 

I like him a lot more this time around; it's just that, for all the signposts, I can't see that Kirkian quality yet. For want of a better term. 

I agree with you and Prom on Paul Wesley; I'm enjoying him as a character other than Kirk, but I'm still not quite buying as Shatner's slightly neurotic, quirkier captain.  This Kirk has the confidence and the smart assery, but there's the Kirk quirkiness missing. Even Chris Pine brought more of that to the table than Wesley has to date. That said, Paul Wesley is just wonderful with Christina Chong. On the strength of their romance, I bought it enough to enjoy the whole of it. 

I always found Doctor Who's "Fixed points in time" schtick handy when attempting to explain timey-wimey stuff. 

Google it; there are so many discussions out there. Fits Star Trek too. 

Hey! Maybe the 29th century temporal federation are somehow... the TIME LORDS?!!!!! 

I started to watch that but was interrupted, so I'll definitely go back and check this out. Thanks, Ashley. 

I too, am leery about Kirk getting a lot of screen time on a Pike show, but, honestly, it more or less worked here.

I thought their chemistry worked well.

But, yes, since they did stretch out the episode, stretch it out another minute or two, just to show them "drawing closer."