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Post by Prometheus59650 on Jun 19, 2023 19:04:22 GMT
Here.
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Post by scenario on Jun 20, 2023 1:43:07 GMT
A Rough Road Leads to the Stars
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Jun 21, 2023 12:07:16 GMT
As much as I look forward to the episode, I have to say the trailers ruined it for me, since we see Number One on duty in subsequent episodes. I only wonder what ruling they arrive at, and if it was the precedent case cited in DS9's "Dr. Bashir, I Presume..."
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Post by scenario on Jun 21, 2023 13:51:11 GMT
Number 1 is in the pilot episode episode. We already knew she gets her job back. Many trailers show the Enterprise and her crew in mortal danger but we know they won't all die.
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Jun 21, 2023 14:21:37 GMT
Yeah, I gotta go with Scenario here. There really was never any real peril here for Una. We know she's getting her job back. The only real question was exactly how.
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Post by ashleytinger on Jun 21, 2023 14:38:59 GMT
The Prequel Peril Paradox
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Post by scenario on Jun 21, 2023 14:49:48 GMT
I think Pike gives a really good speech. Its well established in Star Trek that every problem can be solved with a really good speech.
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Post by ashleytinger on Jun 22, 2023 12:32:14 GMT
The writers of this episode understood the assignment and we have a fantastic courtroom Trek episode. Loved it.
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Jun 22, 2023 16:21:17 GMT
This was very good. Nicely paced and edited so that it actually didn't bog down into pseudo-legal complexities.
And a lovely homage to "Court Martial" in any number of ways, not the least of which is that I'm sure that's exactly how Sam Cogley would've done it.
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Post by Garak Nephew on Jun 22, 2023 17:16:44 GMT
Fantastic episode!!! Star Trek lend itself very good for legal dramas. I think there is a trans (and political) allegory hidden there, we just need to look for it.
SPOILERS
SPOILERS
SPOILERS
SPOILERS
I think Neera's open strategy of attacking the morality of the law was the right move. Una's speech brought some mist to my eyes.
A nice, balanced script not too saturated with legalese but with just enough jargon to make engaging about the importance of laws and rights. Love it!
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Post by Garak Nephew on Jun 22, 2023 17:18:37 GMT
I think Pike gives a really good speech. Its well established in Star Trek that every problem can be solved with a really good speech. Yes, I love speeches! specially if they are well written. Una's and Neera's speeches were really on point and highly effective. |
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Post by scenario on Jun 22, 2023 17:47:33 GMT
Another superb episode. It brought tears to my eyes.
One feature of prejudice is stereotyping. People in this group are all the same. All ___ are ___. You can fill in the blanks. The first step to reducing this are people in public positions who defy expectations. Una is now an example. I expect her to get a lot of flack. Even from within her own crew at some point but she will rise up.
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Post by Yorick on Jun 23, 2023 9:13:38 GMT
Yep, me too. Really liked it. Love a good speech. Despite the familiarity of the ideas at least they were ideas to mull over, topical and provocative. Gimme more of this. I think the call backs from the “armrest of truth” (for want of a better descriptor) to the triangular Starfleet decorations are ways of honouring the original series without excess member berries. Just some solid and welcome continuity.
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Post by scenario on Jun 23, 2023 22:16:46 GMT
I love the scene where Spock is talking to the other Vulcan and Dr. M'Benga says that those two Vulcan's hate each other.
People with Autism can have a great deal of difficulty reading other people's emotions. Until they take the time to learn how to, they don't notice non verbal clues that most people can see as small children. All humans are Autistic when it comes to the emotions of other species. To Dr. M'Benga the two Vulcan's might as well been screaming at each other. To most humans, including the viewers, they were having a quiet conversation. Spock was embarrassed over their argument and burst of emotion that only one human there was even capable of noticing.
Tellarites always come off as rude and angry but if you really could read them, you could get a lot of info from non verbal body language, etc.
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Jun 24, 2023 1:42:04 GMT
I have nothing to say about this episode, except...
THIS IS EASILY THE BEST MODERN-ERA STAR TREK, and possibly one of my all-time favorites of Star Trek, full stop.
I was moved to tears by the ending, and I actually applauded (to my iPad, no less). I cannot say enough good about this episode.
I'm still trying to come up with an adequate review of it, which I hope to have out sometime tomorrow evening or Sunday morning, at latest.
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Post by RobinBland on Jun 24, 2023 1:47:08 GMT
I LOVED THIS EPISODE SO MUCH
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Post by Garak Nephew on Jun 24, 2023 14:32:49 GMT
One of the marks of a great episode is that it stays with you. "Ad Astra Per Aspera" had not leave my head since I watched it on Thursday. It just remarkably nuanced on so many levels. Script, acting, details... I love this Pike. I like how SNW and Mount are delivering the character progression. His vulnerabilities, his tenderness, his loyalties. He his firm and yet soft; that hug to Una at the end was just perfect, a wordless meditation on how to be a different captain. It is no secret that I dislike Kirk and his constant macho posturing on TOS. This Pike is in contrast to Kirk. There are many ways of leading and be a commanding officer, Pike leadership is grounded on his ability to listen and put his "subordinates" first. For him the ship is like a big family. What is brilliant about this psychological profile, is that it grew from the events on the Klingon monastery! It is a reflection of it. If you know the date in the future where you will cease to be you by all sense and purpose, it is up to you to live the remaining of your "able" life as ethically as possible. I think Pike is choosing this but we will see how the story keep up with the demands of it.
So many little things -that are not even part of the main story!!- make this episode so special: Brief glimpses at Dr. M'Benga layers as a character, La'an family baggage, Ortegas vitality as a sort of crew's spiritual core, Spock fluctuations between vulcan and human... I humbly submit that, while this is only the second episode, we have ourselves a great season ahead.
I have said elsewhere that one of my criteria for evaluation of Trek content is rewatchability. On a the rewatchable index from 1 to 10, PIC S3 never put an episode higher than 3. I don't see a reason to go back and watch again any of those episodes other than to demonstrate how NOT to do Trek.
Ad Astra Per Aspera is a solid 8. |
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Post by Garak Nephew on Jun 24, 2023 16:04:00 GMT
One issue, though, kind of bothers me. It is not really a problem, more like a continuity annoyance if we want to be that sort of Trekker constantly picking fights with canon, which am always trying really hard not to be. Since the template for the episode was a court drama with Federation Law as guide, then the figure of precedent was created. Why then Bashir didn't invoked this precedence as a defense when his genetic enhancement put in jeopardy his career ("Doctor Bashir, I Presume", "Statistical Probabilities")? I think the writers for this brilliant SNW episode where aware of this problem when they presented the resolution of asylum as an exception, but I am not lawyer and know just enough of Law to better explain it. I think that by introducing asylum as a final argument, Una's defense clear her WHILE simultaneously acknowledging the morality of the Federation restrictions of genetic manipulations and thus stating that Robert April acted rightly. In the future, Bashir can't invoke this "precedence" because it can only be applied to genetically enhanced individual SEEKING asylum. Una's verdict is NOT a free-for-all pass to the genetically enhanced, it can only be apply to her specific case.
Or maybe it doesn't matter. The episode is great Trek and canon be damn!
As I grew older as Trekker I came to loose my relationship with canon to better enjoy what Trek have to offer. Canon is not straitjacket. Star Trek history is vast (didn't we already pass the 1000 episode threshold?) and keeping up with all its nooks and crannies is just too restraining. The only "canon" we need to respect is with Trek spirit. Its aspirational, positive, inclusive vision of humanity's future. Maybe with time canon will no longer be a word used to describe Star Trek body of work. Maybe, as with Lovecraft expanding universe, Mythos is a better term to designate Trek multiple versions of Humanity plight to better itself: the hope.
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Post by Garak Nephew on Jun 24, 2023 16:12:45 GMT
I love the scene where Spock is talking to the other Vulcan and Dr. M'Benga says that those two Vulcan's hate each other. People with Autism can have a great deal of difficulty reading other people's emotions. Until they take the time to learn how to, they don't notice non verbal clues that most people can see as small children. All humans are Autistic when it comes to the emotions of other species. To Dr. M'Benga the two Vulcan's might as well been screaming at each other. To most humans, including the viewers, they were having a quiet conversation. Spock was embarrassed over their argument and burst of emotion that only one human there was even capable of noticing. Tellarites always come off as rude and angry but if you really could read them, you could get a lot of info from non verbal body language, etc. Great observation! I too noticed M'Benga nuances, this characters have more layers and we are not seeing then all. If M'Benga is on the autistic spectrum (I do not know if this is still the right term), he might have more tools as his disposal to better read his patients of multiple races. |
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Jun 24, 2023 16:23:44 GMT
One issue, though, kind of bothers me. It is not really a problem, more like a continuity annoyance if we want to be that sort of Trekker constantly picking fights with canon, which am always trying really hard not to be. Since the template for the episode was a court drama with Federation Law as guide, then the figure of precedent was created. Why then Bashir didn't invoked this precedence as a defense when his genetic enhancement put in jeopardy his career ("Doctor Bashir, I Presume", "Statistical Probabilities")? I think the writers for this brilliant SNW episode where aware of this problem when they presented the resolution of asylum as an exception, but I am not lawyer and know just enough of Law to better explain it. I think that by introducing asylum as a final argument, Una's defense clear her WHILE simultaneously acknowledging the morality of the Federation restrictions of genetic manipulations and thus stating that Robert April acted rightly. In the future, Bashir can't invoke this "precedence" because it can only be apply to genetically enhanced individual SEEKING asylum. Una's verdict is NOT a free-for-all pass to the genetically enhanced, it can only be apply to her specific case. Or maybe it doesn't matter. The episode is great Trek and canon be damn!
As grew older as Trekker I came to loose my relationship with canon to better enjoy what Trek have to offer. Canon is not straitjacket. Star Trek history is vast (didn't we already pass the 1000 episode threshold?) and keeping up with all its nooks and crannies is just too restraining. The only "canon" we need to respect is with Trek spirit. Its aspirational, positive, inclusive vision of humanity's future. Maybe with time canon will no longer be a word used to describe Star Trek body of work. Maybe, as with Lovecraft expanding universe, Mythos is a better term to designate Trek multiple versions of Humanity plight to better itself: the hope.
Una was allowed off the hook on a technicality because her circumstances could be argued to fit the definition of an asylum request. That's not Bashir's circumstance. |
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Post by scenario on Jun 24, 2023 18:01:51 GMT
I love the scene where Spock is talking to the other Vulcan and Dr. M'Benga says that those two Vulcan's hate each other. People with Autism can have a great deal of difficulty reading other people's emotions. Until they take the time to learn how to, they don't notice non verbal clues that most people can see as small children. All humans are Autistic when it comes to the emotions of other species. To Dr. M'Benga the two Vulcan's might as well been screaming at each other. To most humans, including the viewers, they were having a quiet conversation. Spock was embarrassed over their argument and burst of emotion that only one human there was even capable of noticing. Tellarites always come off as rude and angry but if you really could read them, you could get a lot of info from non verbal body language, etc. Great observation! I too noticed M'Benga nuances, this characters have more layers and we are not seeing then all. If M'Benga is on the autistic spectrum (I do not know if this is still the right term), he might have more tools as his disposal to better read his patients of multiple races. I wasn't trying to say that the doctor was autistic although he might be. I was saying that all humans are blind to subtle body language signals that other species give off. Only the most highly trained humans could read the Vulcan body language that a 3 year old Vulcan child could read easily. They should have used that in Discovery. Every time that Michael interacted with Vulcans she could read things others just couldn't see. She'd grown up with them so it was obvious to her. She had had to learn human body language. |
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Post by Garak Nephew on Jun 24, 2023 18:21:46 GMT
I think that what I am trying to get at is that one reading of genetic enhancement (GE) as used in the episode is as an allegory for queerness and transness. What is put on trial is the Federation prejudice against GE people. The script use this aspect of Federation history to make us think about our current political atmosphere regarding trans rights. But I wonder -and setting aside the queer angle for a moment-, is the Federation position correct? Should a future society ban genetically enhanced individual for fully participating as citizens of that society? It is a complex question with no easy answer. But I am inclined to think that the Federation position is ethically correct. Genetic manipulation open the door to population control and eugenics.
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Jun 24, 2023 22:27:25 GMT
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Post by scenario on Jun 26, 2023 22:27:42 GMT
Are the Illyrians the untouchables of the galaxy?
I can picture their past. They polluted their home world but instead of fixing the pollution they used medicine to let poor people survive in it. When they left their home world other worlds hired them to do the dirty work. Their culture and religion adapted to this. They could survive places other places couldn't. But other races saw them as dirty, and unclean. They used them to clean up their messes and drove them off world when the work was done. They embraced their differences and other races shunned them for it.
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Jun 27, 2023 0:22:35 GMT
Are the Illyrians the untouchables of the galaxy? I can picture their past. They polluted their home world but instead of fixing the pollution they used medicine to let poor people survive in it. When they left their home world other worlds hired them to do the dirty work. Their culture and religion adapted to this. They could survive places other places couldn't. But other races saw them as dirty, and unclean. They used them to clean up their messes and drove them off world when the work was done. They embraced their differences and other races shunned them for it. Humans have a long history of shunning those they fear... |
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Post by Garak Nephew on Jun 27, 2023 0:48:32 GMT
Great review! An instant Twitter share. |
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Jun 28, 2023 13:08:37 GMT
Great review! An instant Twitter share. Thank you! |
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I am so sorry...
Jul 14, 2024 1:18:27 GMT
I am so sorry...
Jul 14, 2024 1:18:27 GMT