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Post by nombrecomun on Feb 17, 2023 20:53:54 GMT
Which is sort of why I've just lurked of late. They are gushing over it and I expected they would, as though packing a show with references makes Star Trek. In this respect, Picard S3 really feels like Lower Decks, and that's why they like it. But, hey, maybe I'm old and jaded.Its almost like I feel the Powers that be don't understand what Star Trek is at its core. Prior to SNW, I would have said exactly this but that show plus Prodigy tells me that TPTB do understand what Trek is about BUT I don't think they think it sells to a wider audience. Or at least to a younger audience. So we get nuTrek that's filled with identity politics(I hate using this term because I think it makes me sound instantly incel or something like that). Especially STD. To be fair it has made a connection. It does look like people in the LGBTQ+ community find STD to be their Trek. I hear a lot of 'finally!' on social media. STP does have a bit of this with the recovering drug addict and Seven's relationship(?) with her. 'Queer baiting' is the term I learned for this. We also get this new version of Seven in this ep which we seem to find odd along with the over the top captain. I just want good scifi. |
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Post by scenario on Feb 17, 2023 21:11:42 GMT
WTF did they do to Seven though? Forcing her to use her childhood identity of “Annika Hansen” when she owns being ex-Borg Seven-of-Nine struck me as the kind of seriously off-key, top-down edict you’d get from a tone-deaf (usually white male, but not exclusively) boss in today’s work environments. In that sense, it’s bang-up-to-date in terms of identity politics, but it was quite painful to witness this most self-possessed of Trek characters plagued with the kinds of doubt that only powerful individuals within institutions can inflict. Agreed. I think it is trying to make that connection with some of today's viewers but it feels off to me. We're depicting a society comprised of multiple species. It just doesn't feel real or believable. The only thing I can think of is that Seven is there purposefully. I mean planted with an ulterior motive and thus has to endure the bullying behaviour....but the fact that the captain behaves in that way feels off outright. I expect that in some modern day drama. Not Star Trek. I wonder if the Captain is a stand in for the current day far right extremists who want to tear the government and replace it with a dictatorship. Earth First. He can't stand Seven because she's tainted with unpure blood. The Federation's core planets are a utopia but some people just have to have control. |
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Feb 17, 2023 21:15:15 GMT
Agreed. I think it is trying to make that connection with some of today's viewers but it feels off to me. We're depicting a society comprised of multiple species. It just doesn't feel real or believable. The only thing I can think of is that Seven is there purposefully. I mean planted with an ulterior motive and thus has to endure the bullying behaviour....but the fact that the captain behaves in that way feels off outright. I expect that in some modern day drama. Not Star Trek. I wonder if the Captain is a stand in for the current day far right extremists who want to tear the government and replace it with a dictatorship. Earth First. He can't stand Seven because she's tainted with unpure blood. The Federation's core planets are a utopia but some people just have to have control. Would be interesting to go that route with him. |
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Post by nombrecomun on Feb 17, 2023 22:18:12 GMT
Agreed. I think it is trying to make that connection with some of today's viewers but it feels off to me. We're depicting a society comprised of multiple species. It just doesn't feel real or believable. The only thing I can think of is that Seven is there purposefully. I mean planted with an ulterior motive and thus has to endure the bullying behaviour....but the fact that the captain behaves in that way feels off outright. I expect that in some modern day drama. Not Star Trek. I wonder if the Captain is a stand in for the current day far right extremists who want to tear the government and replace it with a dictatorship. Earth First. He can't stand Seven because she's tainted with unpure blood. The Federation's core planets are a utopia but some people just have to have control. Personally, I would hate that because it would be an ENT rethread(Terra Prime). But perhaps....the topic needs to be revisited considering our current times. I suppose if they're strongly representing gender fluidity and other similar issues then they could tackle this too. |
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Feb 18, 2023 1:12:25 GMT
Some shows name their seasons. This one would be 'Star Trek Further Into Darkness" I still think the cinematographer could learn from the one that did "Star Trek: GENERATIONS". Say what you want about Generations, but it had the best cinematography on any of the films. Great lighting. Even the "Dark" scenes looked great. Absolutely. One scene specifically in GEN jumps out to me and that's when Picard is in his office with Troi doing the emotional thing about the loss of his family. It was 'room lighting'; natural light coming from the nearby star. It contrasted well with the usual brightness of the bridge and other parts of the ship. And then the lighting changed with the explosion of the star. I know this is not the stuff that you're supposed to focus on while watching such a scene but the lighting did take me out...and not in a bad way either. ABSOLUTELY agree with both of you; GEN may be many things people don't seem to like (I did like it, but hey; I'm weird), but the cinematography by John Alonzo ("Chinatown," "Blue Thunder") was simply amazing. The Enterprise-D sets never looked so good; those sun-lit scenes in 10-Forward, the Ready Room, and Picard's quarters were beautiful. |
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Post by Tupperfan on Feb 18, 2023 1:30:24 GMT
I'm only a quarter of the way in, so I didn't read the rest of the thread yet (by the way, the episode's thread on TrekBBS already has 47 pages already, which feels intense), but isn't there a bit of a contradiction in saying "I am not a man who needs a legacy" mere minutes after talking about writing your memoirs?
Also. I wish I could see what's happening, but just glancing at the post above seem to confirm that I'm not alone on that front...
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Post by Garak Nephew on Feb 18, 2023 16:29:31 GMT
Agreed. I was shocked by this. Of course, the captain was overly cartoonish but there was no reason to see Seven be so beaten down. It almost felt like watching an abused spouse. It would be really interesting if they choose to go this way with Seven, but I doubt it. Setting aside Shaw cartoonish a**holery, it could be a hard pill to swallow for fans to see such a loved character as Seven, an ex-borg from many battles, be embroiled on such "minor" plot line as work-related or emotional distress or abuse. But if you come to examine Seven history it actually make sense. As a child she was snatched from comfy family life by Borg drones and began life on a collective with no sense of individuality (trauma); about twenty years later she was snatched once again by a self righteous Starfleet captain and forced to regain her life as an individual (another form of trauma). Isn't this sort of traumatic pattern ways to leave psychological scars on anyone? And, more importantly, aren't these persons sometime pray upon by abusive predators that thrive on trauma victims vulnerabilities? Could Shaw be one of those, one that saw Seven past and pray on it?
As is often my case, I am probably reading too much into it. But I think Jerry Ryan excellent acting chops are letting us see something else under Seven apparently impervious skin. What? |
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Post by ashleytinger on Feb 18, 2023 23:20:44 GMT
I binged all but two episodes of season 2 before jumping in on this episode. Season 3 feels like season 1 did at the start. I'm ok with it. It's not going to be something I go to watch first, but it was decent so far I thought.
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Post by Yorick on Feb 19, 2023 18:43:32 GMT
NO SPOILERS It actually wasn't bad. I kind of like it. They are not setting out to give us something new, more like TNG with some zest on it. I can accept that but will see how they keep it up. This should have been "Picard" season 1. Some spoilers Some spoilers Some spoilers The grim atmosphere remains problematic, but I think the occasional humor thrown on the script gave some balance to the impending doom lurking in the shadow. I'm struggling with Seven characterization, she had come a long way to be seeing now so hesitant and fearful of superior officers. First two seasons Seven was assertive; and is true that she finally disobey Shaw to help Picard but her all demeanor makes you wander if we have to forget how well and proud she confronted Janeway.
Honestly, I didn't hate it either even though Matalas, for all of ever-loving hell, is STOMPING on old Trek music and visual cues. That whole spacedock sequence was a mash of Treks II and III. And that ship is the Scimitar's baby brother if it's anything. If Matalas keeps up this level of, I'll be kind and say, "callback" it's gonna get tiresome really fast. But the TNG folks still have the old chemistry and the setup isn't bad. With regard particularly with the music (also the plot) I couldn’t help but think this is what an “next generation” AI would do. The prompt would be “create an episode that reminds people of what they liked about Star Trek back when it was at its most popular”. Not just overt bits of Goldsmith but pastiches of Horner and Eidelman, right where the story takes beats from their respective productions. Which is not to say it is bad - I enjoyed it. I don’t mind time travelling to my 20s now and again. But it comes with “future echoes” of reservations: will this be the pattern of the test of the series or will it boldly go somewhere where it’s hasn’t been before? |
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Feb 19, 2023 19:07:26 GMT
Honestly, I didn't hate it either even though Matalas, for all of ever-loving hell, is STOMPING on old Trek music and visual cues. That whole spacedock sequence was a mash of Treks II and III. And that ship is the Scimitar's baby brother if it's anything. If Matalas keeps up this level of, I'll be kind and say, "callback" it's gonna get tiresome really fast. But the TNG folks still have the old chemistry and the setup isn't bad. With regard particularly with the music (also the plot) I couldn’t help but think this is what an “next generation” AI would do. The prompt would be “create an episode that reminds people of what they liked about Star Trek back when it was at its most popular”. Not just overt bits of Goldsmith but pastiches of Horner and Eidelman, right where the story takes beats from their respective productions. Which is not to say it is bad - I enjoyed it. I don’t mind time travelling to my 20s now and again. But it comes with “future echoes” of reservations: will this be the pattern of the test of the series or will it boldly go somewhere where it’s hasn’t been before? There's a really good point here. |
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Feb 20, 2023 16:12:55 GMT
With regard particularly with the music (also the plot) I couldn’t help but think this is what an “next generation” AI would do. The prompt would be “create an episode that reminds people of what they liked about Star Trek back when it was at its most popular”. Not just overt bits of Goldsmith but pastiches of Horner and Eidelman, right where the story takes beats from their respective productions. Which is not to say it is bad - I enjoyed it. I don’t mind time travelling to my 20s now and again. But it comes with “future echoes” of reservations: will this be the pattern of the test of the series or will it boldly go somewhere where it’s hasn’t been before? There's a really good point here. That is exactly what I said in my own summary of the episode; I thought the callbacks were fun and such, but will this be the pattern going forwards? A rejiggering of the familiar at the expense of anything new? To be honest, given that the big bad is another vengeance-seeker in a big, bad pointy spaceship does NOT fill me with confidence that Matalas will deliver. |
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Post by RobinBland on Feb 20, 2023 18:57:36 GMT
There's a really good point here. That is exactly what I said in my own summary of the episode; I thought the callbacks were fun and such, but will this be the pattern going forwards? A rejiggering of the familiar at the expense of anything new? To be honest, given that the big bad is another vengeance-seeker in a big, bad pointy spaceship does NOT fill me with confidence that Matalas will deliver. Apparently this is by design [quoting Matalas from Trek movie.com]: "The premiere contained a good number of little connections, nods, props, and bits of music tied into the franchise. Matalas explained how this is by design, and it starts with the story they are telling in this new season:
Matalas: There’s 57 years of stories, characters, music, world-building, starships. I don’t know how you don’t run into those things in this universe often. There absolutely is a more of an Andor take on a show, which is absolutely interesting, and I would love to see that and be a part of it. But I don’t know that approach is right for this particular story of the Next Generation crew. I would say the only thing that is just for nostalgia sake is the title card “In the 25th Century,” but really what that was meant to do is signal it is going to feel a bit different than what came before in seasons one and two. It needed to do that."Whole feature here. |
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Feb 20, 2023 19:04:00 GMT
I hope he doesn't continue with it.
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Post by Garak Nephew on Feb 21, 2023 1:43:31 GMT
Let's hope that was for the prologue only. Matalas should drop the references, otherwise he might end up producing a parody, and that's Lower Decks function... Please don't bully me.  |
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Feb 21, 2023 4:30:32 GMT
Let's hope that was for the prologue only. Matalas should drop the references, otherwise he might end up producing a parody, and that's Lower Decks function... Please don't bully me. No need for that. LD IS a a parody. |
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Post by SherlockHolmes on Feb 21, 2023 17:32:30 GMT
All of the above. Nostalgia, in and of itself, is an easy, instant sell. There's a lot of cosmetic, attractive nostalgia in nu-Trek. But nostalgia alone rarely stands the test of time. Good stories do. It feels like, lots of times, that Nu-Trek is a cover band and remaking things that never needed to be remade just because a "New generation of ears needs the old lyrics in a new melody that's theirs." Like Lizzo remaking 'Hotel California' or something. I think you struck the nail on the head. |
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Post by RobinBland on Feb 21, 2023 19:10:33 GMT
I think if you set out to do a nostalgic "greatest hits" package, that's one thing. It's safe.
It won't satisfy a lot of people though because they want that and something new. Hence the old maxim of giving the people something they didn't know they wanted.
But if you want to tell a new story set in the Trek universe with the intention of stretching what Star Trek means as a cultural vessel of storytelling, well it's not really set up to do that anymore. As franchises age, they become less good at doing that because they become golden geese and moneypeople always have one eye on the brand and making sure it doesn't lay any duds. Experimentalism is discouraged.
Which is probably why Prodigy feels like the most genuinely fresh of all the nu-Trek shows, because it has actually played with the overall format a little, while still honoring what's gone before.
To play devil's advocate for a bit, Matalas is probably just doing as instructed. And to give him the benefit of the doubt, left to his own devices, maybe he'd deliver something that was a little less of a slavish megamix of past hits.
...
I think, what I'm personally hoping for, is a story I can get immersed in without being hyper-aware of flashy callbacks, old plot tropes and hokey character development. (I didn't even mention upthread how boring it was that the Rikers appear to be estranged.)
These days, much of my Trek entertainment comes from analyzing and dissecting an episode afterwards. I'd actually much rather be so involved that I could come on here and rhapsodise about it. Not expecting that but, hey, ever the optimist.
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Post by scenario on Feb 21, 2023 19:21:43 GMT
Producers think Picard season 3 is like popular bands still playing 40 years later. They've been putting out music for years but half the audience only want to hear their hit songs.
IMO every show should be different to appeal to different fans. If they want one nostalgic show, fine with me. Just let at least one show try to be different and take chances while still having a star trek family.
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Post by SherlockHolmes on Feb 22, 2023 2:51:00 GMT
Producers think Picard season 3 is like popular bands still playing 40 years later. They've been putting out music for years but half the audience only want to hear their hit songs. IMO every show should be different to appeal to different fans. If they want one nostalgic show, fine with me. Just let at least one show try to be different and take chances while still having a star trek family. I agree 100%!!! Its like how the Radio keeps playing the Genesis songs 'Invisible Touch', 'Thats All', and 'Misunderstanding' but as an avid fan I like 'Domino', 'Home By the Sea', 'On the Shoreline', and 'Driving the Last Spike'. |
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Feb 22, 2023 14:00:09 GMT
That is exactly what I said in my own summary of the episode; I thought the callbacks were fun and such, but will this be the pattern going forwards? A rejiggering of the familiar at the expense of anything new? To be honest, given that the big bad is another vengeance-seeker in a big, bad pointy spaceship does NOT fill me with confidence that Matalas will deliver. Apparently this is by design [quoting Matalas from Trek movie.com]: "The premiere contained a good number of little connections, nods, props, and bits of music tied into the franchise. Matalas explained how this is by design, and it starts with the story they are telling in this new season:
Matalas: There’s 57 years of stories, characters, music, world-building, starships. I don’t know how you don’t run into those things in this universe often. There absolutely is a more of an Andor take on a show, which is absolutely interesting, and I would love to see that and be a part of it. But I don’t know that approach is right for this particular story of the Next Generation crew. I would say the only thing that is just for nostalgia sake is the title card “In the 25th Century,” but really what that was meant to do is signal it is going to feel a bit different than what came before in seasons one and two. It needed to do that."Whole feature here. I get that with 800+ hours of Star Trek you're not really going to make anything too original, but cobbling together a greatest hits playlist of 1980s movie moments gets old really fast. And yes, that "Hotel California by Lizzo" remark was spot-on; that's exactly what that "The Next Generation" was to me... a nice song sung yet again by different artists. Nothing new, let alone improved, for that matter. It wasn't unwatchable (like most of PIC S2) but it wasn't something I'd want to watch again, either. These new Star Trek episodes feel disposable to me, somehow. |
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Post by scenario on Feb 22, 2023 14:50:59 GMT
Apparently this is by design [quoting Matalas from Trek movie.com]: "The premiere contained a good number of little connections, nods, props, and bits of music tied into the franchise. Matalas explained how this is by design, and it starts with the story they are telling in this new season:
Matalas: There’s 57 years of stories, characters, music, world-building, starships. I don’t know how you don’t run into those things in this universe often. There absolutely is a more of an Andor take on a show, which is absolutely interesting, and I would love to see that and be a part of it. But I don’t know that approach is right for this particular story of the Next Generation crew. I would say the only thing that is just for nostalgia sake is the title card “In the 25th Century,” but really what that was meant to do is signal it is going to feel a bit different than what came before in seasons one and two. It needed to do that."Whole feature here. I get that with 800+ hours of Star Trek you're not really going to make anything too original, but cobbling together a greatest hits playlist of 1980s movie moments gets old really fast. And yes, that "Hotel California by Lizzo" remark was spot-on; that's exactly what that "The Next Generation" was to me... a nice song sung yet again by different artists. Nothing new, let alone improved, for that matter. It wasn't unwatchable (like most of PIC S2) but it wasn't something I'd want to watch again, either. These new Star Trek episodes feel disposable to me, somehow. That's how most TV feels to me today. That's why I seldom watch it anymore. Each series has a few dozen plots they recycle over and over again. They're trying to avoid the really bad episodes but that means avoiding the really good ones too leaving a stream of average. |
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Post by nombrecomun on Feb 22, 2023 18:28:46 GMT
Producers think Picard season 3 is like popular bands still playing 40 years later. They've been putting out music for years but half the audience only want to hear their hit songs. IMO every show should be different to appeal to different fans. If they want one nostalgic show, fine with me. Just let at least one show try to be different and take chances while still having a star trek family. I think you're talking about Paul McCartney!!! LOL!!! Saw him last year with the family and he only played about a handful of The Beatles songs. Dude!!! I don't care about the last album you put out. I want Sgt Pepper damnit!!! As to your second point I think they've gone with that approach. SNW is for 'originalists'; people who want actual Star Trek, Lower Decks is for younger fans who may have grown up with stuff like South Park to Cartoon Network stuff, Discovery to me seems to be squarely aimed at the LGBTQ+ niche, and so on. Picard seems to be all over the place but just not delivering a good story regardless. So it sounds like they're doubling down on the nostalgia part. |
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Post by RobinBland on Feb 22, 2023 20:19:55 GMT
I resubscribed to Para+ via a different email from my usual one and with a "week's free trial." At the end of it, I pressed the "Cancel subscription" button and a box flashed up saying, "Wait! We'll give you a whole month free!"
So I'll see how I feel after another four episodes. Then I might yet cancel and just wait for the whole season to go up and resubscribe and binge it.
'Cause I'll probably resubscribe for SNW, at least. And I'm getting my Prodigy in, which is a lot of fun.
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Feb 23, 2023 2:03:30 GMT
I resubscribed to Para+ via a different email from my usual one and with a "week's free trial." At the end of it, I pressed the "Cancel subscription" button and a box flashed up saying, "Wait! We'll give you a whole month free!" So I'll see how I feel after another four episodes. Then I might yet cancel and just wait for the whole season to go up and resubscribe and binge it. 'Cause I'll probably resubscribe for SNW, at least. And I'm getting my Prodigy in, which is a lot of fun. PRO has more genuine Star Trek feeling than most of the other Star Trek series' combined, with the exception of SNW. |
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Post by SherlockHolmes on Feb 23, 2023 3:32:58 GMT
I get that with 800+ hours of Star Trek you're not really going to make anything too original, but cobbling together a greatest hits playlist of 1980s movie moments gets old really fast. And yes, that "Hotel California by Lizzo" remark was spot-on; that's exactly what that "The Next Generation" was to me... a nice song sung yet again by different artists. Nothing new, let alone improved, for that matter. It wasn't unwatchable (like most of PIC S2) but it wasn't something I'd want to watch again, either. These new Star Trek episodes feel disposable to me, somehow. That's how most TV feels to me today. That's why I seldom watch it anymore. Each series has a few dozen plots they recycle over and over again. They're trying to avoid the really bad episodes but that means avoiding the really good ones too leaving a stream of average. Thats my issue. I like having 20 episodes of different types of episodes. Something for everybody. I was the weirdo that liked 'Data's Day', 'The Wounded', 'A Matter of Time', 'The Royale', 'Booby Trap', 'A Fistful of Datas', 'Hollow Pursuits', 'The Arsenal of Freedom', and the really weird ones like 'Phantasms' and 'Masks'. I loved the variety. |
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