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Post by scenario on Aug 20, 2023 16:32:48 GMT
Its fairly easy to envision a situation where Chapel survived. When she beamed on the ship she headed towards sickbay but it was destroyed before she got there. The acting captain called abandon ship and people ran to the life pods and most of the crew died there. When she found out the life pods had been destroyed she headed to an area which had EVA suits and an independent oxygen supply and just made it before passing out. She didn't just happen to be where there were EVA suits. She head there when the life pods were destroyed. She'd been in war. She looked for places like this as soon as she got on the ship. She's one of those people who look for all the ways to get out of a building in case of fire as soon as they walk inside.
Imo, this was a Kobayashi Maru situation. There were almost certainly other survivors but Pike didn't know that for sure. He was in a situation where he could spend hours or days trying to save the small number of crew members who may or may not be alive and let everyone on the ground die. Or he could use what remained of the ship to save hundred of people on the ground who they knew were alive. The needs of the many. Chapple survived by plot armor.
Pikes delay was a couple of seconds which was drawn out for the sake of drama.
I agree about the Gorn but they have made a big point to stress that they were meeting young Gorn. I'm of the belief that Kirk met an Elder but still strong Gorn. The Gorn Spock met was a teenager, not an adult. The Gorn wouldn't risk an adult on a boarding party. In my scenario, there is one adult for 100 teenagers for 10,000 baby Gorn. Adults are protected at all costs. They're like a termite colony with a very small number of breeding adults among lots of younger followers.
If you are really into cannon then all colonies must look just like the colonies looked in TOS.
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Aug 21, 2023 2:46:15 GMT
I agree with most everything you write here, o wise Sehlat. I did not make the connection re: the Cayuga and Rod Serling, though! That is a helluva nice tribute, and makes further sense of the colony. Agree about Ortegas, too. Great character, wonderfully and warmly realised by Melissa Navia. She really deserves better focus. I recall hoping aloud earlier in the season that "this" one wasn't "her" episode, but it turns out it was. That is, she never really had an actual episode that focused upon her character. I'm starting to wonder if that lack of development means they might be Tasha Yarring her with this cliffhanger. |
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Post by RobinBland on Aug 21, 2023 17:41:29 GMT
Its fairly easy to envision a situation where Chapel survived. When she beamed on the ship she headed towards sickbay but it was destroyed before she got there. The acting captain called abandon ship and people ran to the life pods and most of the crew died there. When she found out the life pods had been destroyed she headed to an area which had EVA suits and an independent oxygen supply and just made it before passing out. She didn't just happen to be where there were EVA suits. She head there when the life pods were destroyed. She'd been in war. She looked for places like this as soon as she got on the ship. She's one of those people who look for all the ways to get out of a building in case of fire as soon as they walk inside. Imo, this was a Kobayashi Maru situation. There were almost certainly other survivors but Pike didn't know that for sure. He was in a situation where he could spend hours or days trying to save the small number of crew members who may or may not be alive and let everyone on the ground die. Or he could use what remained of the ship to save hundred of people on the ground who they knew were alive. The needs of the many. Chapple survived by plot armor. Pikes delay was a couple of seconds which was drawn out for the sake of drama. I agree about the Gorn but they have made a big point to stress that they were meeting young Gorn. I'm of the belief that Kirk met an Elder but still strong Gorn. The Gorn Spock met was a teenager, not an adult. The Gorn wouldn't risk an adult on a boarding party. In my scenario, there is one adult for 100 teenagers for 10,000 baby Gorn. Adults are protected at all costs. They're like a termite colony with a very small number of breeding adults among lots of younger followers. If you are really into cannon then all colonies must look just like the colonies looked in TOS. It isn't so much that fact that she survived that I had difficulty with, just the way they portrayed it all. There were so many instances of dumb luck involved, even down to her just seeing Spock at exactly the right time, that it all just felt very contrived. Arguably, that's a flaw in the direction rather than the writing because, as scripted, it could've all worked, but as Myers is the showrunner, he signs off on all that so must've had a lot of input into the way it was filmed. Obviously I want Chapel to survive - I like this character - but to me this whole sequence just felt like it stretched credulity that little bit too far. Of course, YMMV. The production team have made it clear they're not going to address any inconsistencies with Arena. Fair enough - at this stage with NuTrek, I treat the whole thing as a reboot anyway. It's not really a "prequel" anymore. I kind of wish they'd give themselves or at least acknowledge that freedom too rather than being inconsistent with what aspects of established canon they follow and what they don't. |
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Post by RobinBland on Aug 21, 2023 17:42:59 GMT
I agree with most everything you write here, o wise Sehlat. I did not make the connection re: the Cayuga and Rod Serling, though! That is a helluva nice tribute, and makes further sense of the colony. Agree about Ortegas, too. Great character, wonderfully and warmly realised by Melissa Navia. She really deserves better focus. I recall hoping aloud earlier in the season that "this" one wasn't "her" episode, but it turns out it was. That is, she never really had an actual episode that focused upon her character. I'm starting to wonder if that lack of development means they might be Tasha Yarring her with this cliffhanger. D'you think so? I dunno... seems much too popular a character. Lotta love out there for Ortegas. Unless of course Navia has asked to leave? I saw her interview on The Ready Room and going from that, it seems unlikely? |
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Aug 21, 2023 18:51:22 GMT
I'm starting to wonder if that lack of development means they might be Tasha Yarring her with this cliffhanger. D'you think so? I dunno... seems much too popular a character. Lotta love out there for Ortegas. Unless of course naive has asked to leave? I saw her interview on the relay Room and groping from that, it seems unlikely? I agree. She's not going anywhere. I would be stunned. |
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Post by scenario on Aug 21, 2023 20:19:12 GMT
Its fairly easy to envision a situation where Chapel survived. When she beamed on the ship she headed towards sickbay but it was destroyed before she got there. The acting captain called abandon ship and people ran to the life pods and most of the crew died there. When she found out the life pods had been destroyed she headed to an area which had EVA suits and an independent oxygen supply and just made it before passing out. She didn't just happen to be where there were EVA suits. She head there when the life pods were destroyed. She'd been in war. She looked for places like this as soon as she got on the ship. She's one of those people who look for all the ways to get out of a building in case of fire as soon as they walk inside. Imo, this was a Kobayashi Maru situation. There were almost certainly other survivors but Pike didn't know that for sure. He was in a situation where he could spend hours or days trying to save the small number of crew members who may or may not be alive and let everyone on the ground die. Or he could use what remained of the ship to save hundred of people on the ground who they knew were alive. The needs of the many. Chapple survived by plot armor. Pikes delay was a couple of seconds which was drawn out for the sake of drama. I agree about the Gorn but they have made a big point to stress that they were meeting young Gorn. I'm of the belief that Kirk met an Elder but still strong Gorn. The Gorn Spock met was a teenager, not an adult. The Gorn wouldn't risk an adult on a boarding party. In my scenario, there is one adult for 100 teenagers for 10,000 baby Gorn. Adults are protected at all costs. They're like a termite colony with a very small number of breeding adults among lots of younger followers. If you are really into cannon then all colonies must look just like the colonies looked in TOS. It isn't so much that fact that she survived that I had difficulty with, just the way they portrayed it all. There were so many instances of dumb luck involved, even down to her just seeing Spock at exactly the right time, that it all just felt very contrived. Arguably, that's a flaw in the direction rather than the writing because, as scripted, it could've all worked, but as Myers is the showrunner, he signs off on all that so must've had a lot of input into the way it was filmed. Obviously I want Chapel to survive - I like this character - but to me this whole sequence just felt like it stretched credulity that little bit too far. Of course, YMMV. The production team have made it clear they're not going to address any inconsistencies with Arena. Fair enough - at this stage with NuTrek, I treat the whole thing as a reboot anyway. It's not really a "prequel" anymore. I kind of wish they'd give themselves or at least acknowledge that freedom too rather than being inconsistent with what aspects of established canon they follow and what they don't. They were trying to create tension by not showing her viewpoint leading up to that point. Every minute where they showed her would have to come out of another scene. I found it annoying but I'm always finding annoying things like that. I'd like to see a feature online like logbooks for characters where they let the characters explain the inevitable story gaps caused by various reasons usually linked to time or money. |
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Post by RobinBland on Aug 21, 2023 21:57:36 GMT
It isn't so much that fact that she survived that I had difficulty with, just the way they portrayed it all. There were so many instances of dumb luck involved, even down to her just seeing Spock at exactly the right time, that it all just felt very contrived. Arguably, that's a flaw in the direction rather than the writing because, as scripted, it could've all worked, but as Myers is the showrunner, he signs off on all that so must've had a lot of input into the way it was filmed. Obviously I want Chapel to survive - I like this character - but to me this whole sequence just felt like it stretched credulity that little bit too far. Of course, YMMV. The production team have made it clear they're not going to address any inconsistencies with Arena. Fair enough - at this stage with NuTrek, I treat the whole thing as a reboot anyway. It's not really a "prequel" anymore. I kind of wish they'd give themselves or at least acknowledge that freedom too rather than being inconsistent with what aspects of established canon they follow and what they don't. They were trying to create tension by not showing her viewpoint leading up to that point. Every minute where they showed her would have to come out of another scene. I found it annoying but I'm always finding annoying things like that. I'd like to see a feature online like logbooks for characters where they let the characters explain the inevitable story gaps caused by various reasons usually linked to time or money. I get why they didn't show her POV prior to that point in the story. It's just that when the story shifted to tell us what happened to her, none of it worked for me. It was all too fast, too lucky, too simplistic, not enough attention paid to what it would really be like to be caught up in a shipwreck with vacuum all around and losing life support. Too much "plot," the mechanics of stuff that needed to happen, all showing through the gauze of the presentation. It all just seemed too pat, too stagey, too implausibly fortuitous. Of course, if they go back and address this in a future episode, and Chapel is seen to wrestle with her grandiose luck and survivor's guilt and they make a feature of it, I'll be happy! That's a good idea re: the logbooks. Back in the day, whenever Terrance Dicks would novelise a Doctor Who story, he'd tweak bits that hadn't quite made sense on the transmitted TV version, both reinserting scenes that were cut for time but also just using his finely-honed script editor's sensibility to glue bits of plot together that been missed. Stuff that had fallen through the cracks. I always appreciated his efforts, and yeah, sometimes, it's out of those overlooked details that another whole story can come into being. |
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Aug 22, 2023 1:02:31 GMT
D'you think so? I dunno... seems much too popular a character. Lotta love out there for Ortegas. Unless of course naive has asked to leave? I saw her interview on the relay Room and groping from that, it seems unlikely? I agree. She's not going anywhere. I would be stunned. It wouldn't be the first time Star Trek had a bad idea, though. Hemmer was popular, too. |
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Post by scenario on Aug 22, 2023 2:40:55 GMT
They were trying to create tension by not showing her viewpoint leading up to that point. Every minute where they showed her would have to come out of another scene. I found it annoying but I'm always finding annoying things like that. I'd like to see a feature online like logbooks for characters where they let the characters explain the inevitable story gaps caused by various reasons usually linked to time or money. I get why they didn't show her POV prior to that point in the story. It's just that when the story shifted to tell us what happened to her, none of it worked for me. It was all too fast, too lucky, too simplistic, not enough attention paid to what it would really be like to be caught up in a shipwreck with vacuum all around and losing life support. Too much "plot," the mechanics of stuff that needed to happen, all showing through the gauze of the presentation. It all just seemed too pat, too stagey, too implausibly fortuitous. Of course, if they go back and address this in a future episode, and Chapel is seen to wrestle with her grandiose luck and survivor's guilt and they make a feature of it, I'll be happy! That's a good idea re: the logbooks. Back in the day, whenever Terrance Dicks would novelise a Doctor Who story, he'd tweak bits that hadn't quite made sense on the transmitted TV version, both reinserting scenes that were cut for time but also just using his finely-honed script editor's sensibility to glue bits of plot together that been missed. Stuff that had fallen through the cracks. I always appreciated his efforts, and yeah, sometimes, it's out of those overlooked details that another whole story can come into being. The problem I have with the scene is that Christine was too passive. She should have been standing in the space suit sans helmet looking at some sort of machine looking for a way to escape. She could be muttering to herself, "Don't want to attract attention. Passive scan only." That's when she see's Spock and the scene runs from there. She was too much a damsel in distress. But Damsels in Distress sell. |
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Post by SherlockHolmes on Aug 23, 2023 23:01:28 GMT
....you know what I hate about this episode....its that its THE SEASON FINALE...only 10 episodes in. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, GIVE ME 26 episodes a season. And don't tell me it can't be done. Joe Michael Strac(pretends to know how to spell JMS's Name) zinski did it with B5. And He kept the quality coming. I'm willing to compromise for 21. NO LESS. THIS IS MY REALITY, GIVE ME WHAT I WANT. 'MURICA!!!! I seriously hate having to wait 5/6 of a year for a show. I used to enjoy 1/2 of a year and wait 1/2 a year for my shows. This is pathetic.
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Post by nombrecomun on Aug 24, 2023 0:49:47 GMT
....you know what I hate about this episode....its that its THE SEASON FINALE...only 10 episodes in. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, GIVE ME 26 episodes a season. And don't tell me it can't be done. Joe Michael Strac(pretends to know how to spell JMS's Name) zinski did it with B5. And He kept the quality coming. I'm willing to compromise for 21. NO LESS. THIS IS MY REALITY, GIVE ME WHAT I WANT. 'MURICA!!!! I seriously hate having to wait 5/6 of a year for a show. I used to enjoy 1/2 of a year and wait 1/2 a year for my shows. This is pathetic. LOL!!! I hear ya. It's just a very different time in tv. |
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Post by RobinBland on Aug 24, 2023 18:14:18 GMT
I get why they didn't show her POV prior to that point in the story. It's just that when the story shifted to tell us what happened to her, none of it worked for me. It was all too fast, too lucky, too simplistic, not enough attention paid to what it would really be like to be caught up in a shipwreck with vacuum all around and losing life support. Too much "plot," the mechanics of stuff that needed to happen, all showing through the gauze of the presentation. It all just seemed too pat, too stagey, too implausibly fortuitous. Of course, if they go back and address this in a future episode, and Chapel is seen to wrestle with her grandiose luck and survivor's guilt and they make a feature of it, I'll be happy! That's a good idea re: the logbooks. Back in the day, whenever Terrance Dicks would novelise a Doctor Who story, he'd tweak bits that hadn't quite made sense on the transmitted TV version, both reinserting scenes that were cut for time but also just using his finely-honed script editor's sensibility to glue bits of plot together that been missed. Stuff that had fallen through the cracks. I always appreciated his efforts, and yeah, sometimes, it's out of those overlooked details that another whole story can come into being. The problem I have with the scene is that Christine was too passive. She should have been standing in the space suit sans helmet looking at some sort of machine looking for a way to escape. She could be muttering to herself, "Don't want to attract attention. Passive scan only." That's when she see's Spock and the scene runs from there. She was too much a damsel in distress. But Damsels in Distress sell. I didn't mind that too much, as she was an absolute badass for the rest of the season. But it would've been kind of fun if she had to rescue Spock. |
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Aug 24, 2023 19:06:36 GMT
I have to say that all this has very much strengthened and rebuilt the character of Chapel for me, as so much of the writing and portrayal has done.
After giving both her and Spock some honest relationship history and doing it in a way that makes sense, it makes TOS Chapel look infinitely less sad, cloying, and pathetic.
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Post by Garak Nephew on Aug 25, 2023 1:22:40 GMT
....you know what I hate about this episode....its that its THE SEASON FINALE...only 10 episodes in. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, GIVE ME 26 episodes a season. And don't tell me it can't be done. Joe Michael Strac(pretends to know how to spell JMS's Name) zinski did it with B5. And He kept the quality coming. I'm willing to compromise for 21. NO LESS. THIS IS MY REALITY, GIVE ME WHAT I WANT. 'MURICA!!!! I seriously hate having to wait 5/6 of a year for a show. I used to enjoy 1/2 of a year and wait 1/2 a year for my shows. This is pathetic. Different time indeed. I do missed those days. The eagerness of waiting for a new TNG to drop. I think I finished grasping the meaning of desire in those days of the week while waiting. The yearning, the expectation, the certainty of happiness at the end... They should be able to squeeze a couple of more. The fans are here. |
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Post by RobinBland on Aug 25, 2023 11:40:34 GMT
It’s true - by episode 10, it feels like they’re just getting going. Discovery used to do 15 episode-long seasons, not too long ago. It does feel like [cannot resist it, sorry] too short a season.
If they could stretch to 12, I’d be happier, even if one of them was a bottle show.
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Post by Sehlat Vie on Aug 26, 2023 0:33:23 GMT
....you know what I hate about this episode....its that its THE SEASON FINALE...only 10 episodes in. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, GIVE ME 26 episodes a season. And don't tell me it can't be done. Joe Michael Strac(pretends to know how to spell JMS's Name) zinski did it with B5. And He kept the quality coming. I'm willing to compromise for 21. NO LESS. THIS IS MY REALITY, GIVE ME WHAT I WANT. 'MURICA!!!! I seriously hate having to wait 5/6 of a year for a show. I used to enjoy 1/2 of a year and wait 1/2 a year for my shows. This is pathetic. They could (after the strikes are settled, of course), but the episodes wouldn't be of the same feature-film quality that viewers have become spoiled---er, 'accustomed' to these days. Personally, I've come to prefer shorter and sweeter over 26 episode runs where nearly half were mediocre anyway. |
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Post by Prometheus59650 on Aug 26, 2023 2:02:19 GMT
I could stand to go to 12 or 13.
But 22?
Nah.
For me, most seasons of Trek, save DS9, don't have more than 12 or 13 rewatchable shows in the season anyway.
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Post by nombrecomun on Aug 26, 2023 17:27:02 GMT
Now that we've gone a bit off the path with # of eps per season.....I find that even with shorter seasons the number of filler or stretched out eps to be ridiculous. Star Wars and Marvel are awful at that. A 6 ep 'season' with a story that could have been told in half.
I'd rather have less eps if there's more consistency in quality and narrative. So far SNW has done that well. Picard and Discovery haven't.
The money just isn't there anymore to pay for good stories, the sets, the actors, etc....It's too expensive.
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Post by SherlockHolmes on Aug 28, 2023 20:24:54 GMT
....you know what I hate about this episode....its that its THE SEASON FINALE...only 10 episodes in. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, GIVE ME 26 episodes a season. And don't tell me it can't be done. Joe Michael Strac(pretends to know how to spell JMS's Name) zinski did it with B5. And He kept the quality coming. I'm willing to compromise for 21. NO LESS. THIS IS MY REALITY, GIVE ME WHAT I WANT. 'MURICA!!!! I seriously hate having to wait 5/6 of a year for a show. I used to enjoy 1/2 of a year and wait 1/2 a year for my shows. This is pathetic. They could (after the strikes are settled, of course), but the episodes wouldn't be of the same feature-film quality that viewers have become spoiled---er, 'accustomed' to these days. Personally, I've come to prefer shorter and sweeter over 26 episode runs where nearly half were mediocre anyway. But over those 26, you had a little something for everybody. Not everyone likes the same episodes. Like me, I am utterly sick of best of both worlds, but give me "Data's Day" and "The wounded" any day. I even liked "Masks" (Hides). There is always the inevitable "Sub Rosa" even in short series. I like a lot of variety in my shows. I'll even take "Move Along Home" over "Duet" on days that I don't feel like watching intense drama. Also-Strange New Worlds has never felt "Cinematic" to me. Especially with the Sub-par DARK CGI scenes that you can hardly tell what's going on in. |
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Post by RobinBland on Aug 29, 2023 19:51:09 GMT
They could (after the strikes are settled, of course), but the episodes wouldn't be of the same feature-film quality that viewers have become spoiled---er, 'accustomed' to these days. Personally, I've come to prefer shorter and sweeter over 26 episode runs where nearly half were mediocre anyway. Also-Strange New Worlds has never felt "Cinematic" to me. Especially with the Sub-par DARK CGI scenes that you can hardly tell what's going on in. While watching Ahsoka, I found myself really appreciating the lovely clarity of all the VFX sequences. It wasn't as if they weren't fancy in their own way; in the opening scene, the camera swoops all around the big Republic starship. But throughout, the storytelling is impeccable - you always know exactly what's going on, where the ship is heading, who is shooting at who, etc. It's atmospheric without ever losing the (visual) plot. While we're griping about Trek VFX, I'd say that SNW has generally been above the average for modern Kurtzman Trek shows, but in S2 the Enterprise seems to have acquired another whole level of greeblie detail that makes her looks like she's made out of hand-hammered wrought iron. It's aztecing taken to a ridiculous and unnecessary extreme. I do miss the days when the show runners exerted an overall visual sensibility that reined in the worst excesses of VFX designers. |
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I am so sorry...